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eBay handcuff question???????

37 visible archived posts · 37 preserved total · topic ID 1058

The Amazing Michael 12 Jan 2006

What is the rarest handcuff, leg iron, or related item you have ever seen for sale on eBay? Also, how much money did the item sell for at the end of the auction? Has anyone ever seen a (non-repro) Bean Giant or Kakola handcuff on eBay? I would love to hear some stories about the one that had you ready to clear out you retirement fund to buy, or actually DID clear out your retirement fund to buy. I look forward to your replies.

Cheers, Mike

stan willis 12 Jan 2006

Over the years there have been several Phelps cuffs, Lillie Leg irons, Bean Giants, McKenzie Mitts, Oregon Boots, Luna cuffs, Waldens, Palmers, Romers, Flash Action Manacles, Rankins, and other rare cuffs on ebay. I don't recall prices, but I have seen Bean Giants sell for $ 130.00 with a "Buy it now" to over $ 1000.00. I have 2 McKenzie Mitts and 3 Oregon Boots, so didn't buy them. The most I ever paid on ebay was about $ 2600.00 for a LUNA cuff with a legitimate history of when and how it was found. That was more than I intended to pay, but that sometimes happens on ebay. I don't think I've ever seen a Wisner & Hoyt, Gill folding cuff, or Kakola on ebay.
For those of you who don't know what these look like, they are all shown on my CD, along with 1150 other restraints. I sell it on my web site, or you can get it from Cuffsland in Europe.
Stan
http://www.handcuffsandbadges.com

Mark Lyons 12 Jan 2006

Hi.
About a year and a half ago, there was a Wisner-Hoyt cuff posted on eBay and I believe it sold for about $2,500. The seller described the cuffs as being left in the "unlocked" position.
Well, these cuffs do not have arming buttons or anything similar such as any Bean cuff would have, so that was a tip off that they were being sold with broken springs. Most cuffs have a metal ratchet and a spring to push it up against the bows. The Wisner's are almost unique in that they do not have an actual ratchet. The springs actually come in contact with the bow and become susceptible to breakage by pressure. The cuffs are rare enough that even in their broken state, they demand top dollar.
I picked up a very nice Gill folding cuff on eBay fairly recently and it was not very expensive. About the same time, I got a nice Walden that has both keyway posts still intact. The price on this one was also very favorable.
I brought a neat German cuff to the Escape-con for all to see. It was very circular in design so I named it "The Circle Cuff" and than one cost me dearly. I hope that it did not break any records for handcuffs on eBay, but it is probably a good contender.

mark
O--O

P.S. I pity the poor people who continue to pay in excess of $500 for garbage cuffs like T.H. Parker slave cuffs or that stupid Leavenwoth Prison ball and chain. Sure wish this web-site had a fake and forgery section in it that shows this trash. (hint-hint) People come here to learn about nice cuffs, but can not learn anything about the bad ones.

Joe Lauher 12 Jan 2006

Hi Mark

I have thought about this. It would be usedful, but it is not trivial, because not everyone agrees on one constitutes a reproduction.

There are at several classes of reproductions that come to mind.

1. Modern made repros made to look old and presented as such to the unsuspecting buyer. (Pure junk. Lots of it on eBay all the time.)

2. Modern made repros that look new and are sold as such. Often with beautiful plating. (Kubs for example.)

3. Specialized repros of rare old cuffs intended for collectors and magicians. (Like Ian's wonderful work.)

4. Old repros and patent infringements from the past. Highly collectible on its own. (Old copies of Tower Detective cuffs for example. )

To do this I would need a good set of photos. I don't want compromise a section that discusses the ethics of selling fraudulent reproductions by violating the ethics of copyright.

So what do you think would be appropriate?

Joe

stan willis 12 Jan 2006

I've changed my position on reproductions in the past few years. It used to be that I didn't want anything that wasn't used by police or in a prison. I now include some reproductions, copies, etc. in the collection so I know what they are when I see them for sale. My views on each catagory follow:
1.I have a few of these, but they are pure junk and are not included in the collection. I have them just to see what junk has been made.
2.Some of these are very good quality, and are included in the collection because I have seen pictures where they are used in law enforcement in India and Pakistan. Cuffs like the Hamburg 8 and French chain cuff are interesting, and are made different from the originals. New collectors need to know what the KUB and Victor Hamburg 8 looks like so they know it is not a German made original.
3. Ian has made copies of very rare cuffs like the Giteau, and the Houdini No. 61. Most of us can never own an original, so the copy is excellent to see how the original works and how unique they are. The same is true for his Russian manacle and Challenge cuff, etc. The quality and how few were made will dictate that these will be true collectors items.
4. Imitation Tower detective was made by several companies, and was used by law enforcement. I include these as part of the police restraint collection.

Stan

stan willis 12 Jan 2006

I suppose my latest philosophy, in order to keep up with Mark Lyons, is:
IF it looks like a cuff, smells like a cuff, and quacks like a cuff...it's a cuff and belongs in the collection.
Stan

marie 12 Jan 2006

being new at this, and still very green I would have to agree how easy it is to get ripped off, how many times have I seen the words....handcuffs stamped Alcatraz....on ebay and been tempted, and its only because I have asked that I now know these are generally fakes that were mass produced ten minutes ago!! That being said the Irish eights I got for chrimbo were made by KUB which I think im right in saying makes them a reproduction and they are supurb I am delighted with them. Also of course there is an argument to say that a restraints collection should encompass all to do with restraints including the fakes and junk. A listing of some sort would be great that distinguished between originals and fakes with maybe photos comparing the two?

Anonymous 12 Jan 2006

Hi.
What I have envisioned is a section or chapter, if you will, that may simply be titled "Modern Reproductions and Non Law Enforcement Handcuffs." and have sub-headings such as : Fakes and Frauds----Fantasy and Film/TV cuffs ---and Fantastic Finds or Fun cuffs.

Each cuff submitted could be rated and entered into its appropriate section or sub-heading.
Pure junk like the Plantation Slave cuffs would be categorized under Fakes and Frauds since it never really existed.
Ian's very close to real cuffs might be listed under Fantastic finds or other appropriate name.
Those time-released frozen ice cuffs might go under fun cuffs.
The Batman and Flintstones cuffs on ebay a few years ago would go under film.
The Kub collection would need it's own section.

This is just a first draft of what could be. We might wish to discuss it further and get input from anyone who has an idea and fine tune this so anyone who has a repro. cuff or is interested on bidding on one can learn about its origins and value.

As Ian is the largest manufacturer of the finer reproductions, I would especially appreciate his opinion on this subject.

mark
O--O

silvermy 12 Jan 2006

The whole discussion of what is real, reproduction, fake is sort of amusing. History is full of examples where mutiple manufacturers made a given design. In fact, in most cases we have choesn to name the design after the inventor, not the manufacturer - we usually add a model number, where possible. Darby references such a pattern/design - so anyone making a cuff with that pattern can legitimately call them Darbies. One might question their "right" to name the model (104 for a non-swing through darby, for example).
The so called "Indian Cuffs" are not reproductions, nor, really, fakes. What they are is a variation on the Darby pattern (and others). What they are is a mediocre such variation. Many manufacturers over the years have made Darbies and these are just more of the same, just not well made. The KUB cuffs are in the same class, although slightly better made than the Indian ones. Both of these are a modern variation, to be sure, and their value is far less than the older ones due to this and other facts. Marketing one as an older one is certainly slimy and it is that act that qualifies them as fake, though, only when compared to what they are being marketed as, if you get my drift.
One could call the alternate makes of Tower cuffs reproductions, or fakes, though they are actually worth more than the originals in some cases, due to their rarity.
It is important to answer questions as to whether something is real or not with the above in mine, in my opinion.
And, by the way, I treasure my "Indian Cuffs" as much as i do any of the items in my collection.
- Yossie

stan willis 12 Jan 2006

#10

While I agree with Yossie, it should be pointed out that the only reason KUB is making some of their cuffs, like the Hamburg 8 and French chain cuff is because a collector sent them a picture and asked them to make it. I don't know if that makes a difference as to why they exist or not.
Stan

Dorson 13 Jan 2006

#11

How about start simple like work on the cheap/crappy indian darbies that have been rusted to make them look old and the plantation cuffs, alcaltraz, etc. And do a small writed up on what clues to look for in the photo's since some sellers use poor pictures so as to make it harder to tell the just how cheap they are. I remember ebay used to let people contact other bidders real easy but they have made it harder and claiming interference with an auction. I remember years ago some asshole in Florida was selling the indian darbies claiming they came from Mount Vernon, the estate of one George Washington. When I challenged him about the truthfullness of his claim knowing he was a liar he stood by a claim he bought them from a antique shop near Mount Vernon. And I had contacted some of the bidders to let them know they were fakes. He was not happy and threatened to report me to ebay and my reply was go right ahead. I could back up what I said and I would like to see him explain to some Fed's about property of Mount Vernon if it was for real. Or to ebay for making false claims about an item for sale. Either way, he was had and never heard back from him. I know some other collectors have tried to educate some of these bidders but it is a contual battle. I have even seen the clever wording of some where reproduction is buried way deep in the description. Too bad there is no way to have a special section for those cheap repro's and cheap toys they sell at novelty shops.

-Dorson

Anonymous 13 Jan 2006

#12

Here's something from another thread in this forum, about "reproductions"

For a full description of what's going on here, go to:

http://www.bis.doc.gov/PoliciesAndRegul ... Rights.htm

Since the year 2000, as part of its policy to "punish" nations that abuse human rights and religious freedoms, the US has restricted exports of certain crime control devices (firearms, stun guns, ammunition, handcuffs, etc.) to those countries on the grounds that they might be used to torture people. The list of countries on the "we don't like you" list is rather lengthy.

If you are an exporter of such articles, you've always had to have a customs export license whereby the Treasury Department made sure you paid your export taxes. This thing is an additional license issued by the Department of Commerce whereby they can (1) prevent exports to countries they don't like and (2) monitor what is being exported to countries they do like.

While the federal statute only uses the term "handcuffs" without any definition, the Department of Commerce has filled this in and expanded the term to include any type of physical "restraint" including humane restraints designed and marketed for use in a medical environment to prevent patients from hurting themselves.

What's truly interesting is that after these restrictions were imposed, companies in Pakistan and elsewhere began manufacturing in huge quantities all of the old-style low-technology restraints, such as Darby-style handcuffs, leg irons, neck collars, combination restraints, thumbscrews, wrist screws, etc. Does anyone out there really believe these are being sold only to "collectors?"

With respect to handcuffs (or, to be precise, "restraints"), is this ridiculous? Of course it is. Can restraints be used for human torture? Yes, and so can pliers, screwdrivers, coathangers, rope, sticks and rocks.

Jeff 13 Jan 2006

#13

Dorson:

Yes, eBay will do nothing if anything for you. PayPal is one of their creations. But they are dependent upon it, and must respond.

Set your account up with American Express.

Yes, you will have to pay fifteen or twenty bucks or so per year to use them. You also have to pay off your balance at the end of every month.

But if you get in a dispute, they will rip a new one.

The Amazing Michael 13 Jan 2006

#14

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I am really glad that I started it now. Not only has it been informative, but it has been very educational too....not to mention the fact that a great idea has spawned from it! I LOVE the idea of a "repro, fakes, & frauds" type of section here! I would be more than happy to contribute to it!

I have to tell you guys, I am a pretty good judge of what is fake or what is a repro, but the "unknown backstrap Drabies" ,that we were just discussing on another thread, had me fooled. I know that I still have a lot to learn. This type of section will not only help out the layman who is considering bidding on cuff with a questionable background, but it can also help the people here who might not yet be considered a seasoned pro. There are some great minds and very knowledgable people here, heck, maybe the best and brightest in the handcuff world!!! This idea has potential! I say we roll with it.

Cheers, Mike

Anonymous 13 Jan 2006

#15

this one is so nice.. :-D

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-GERMAN-HANDCUF ... dZViewItem

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