Don Hinz and Ray McKee

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Don was still alive and living in WI last I knew, he was in very poor health from what I remember. He also sold most (all) of his collection in the 80's.

Shawn

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

McKee also sold his collection. Hinz was a collector, but also a dealer (like me). I bought a few things from him when i started collecting almost 40 years ago and I promptly sent them all back to him. He stamped his name on everything, and that was not what I ordered. McKee wasn't so much a dealer as a collector, but (like most of us) would trade duplicates. I'm not sure I would call either of them pioneers. There were handcuff sellers in Houdini's day, and dealers like Weeks, T.J. Ferrick, Patterson Smith, Frank Roshon, and Prynce Wheeler all had a larger presence in selling handcuffs than Hinz or McKee. I have nothing in my collection that i can attribute to Hinz, since i never did another deal with him after the first deal. I did some trades with Ray Mckee, but I couldn't tell you what I have that came from him. The only related deal I remember was that I bought a MINT Stotz from a sporting goods dealer that lived within a few miles of McKee.
I can add to this that Patterson Smith is still around as a book dealer, and Frank Roshon is in a nursing home and all his cuffs and keys and miscellaneous were sold off a few years ago through his nephew. Maybe 40 years from now people will be asking about Some of those who are now on the forum, myself included. Joe Tanner can fill us in on Prynce Wheeler, since Prynce was his father-in-law.
Stan

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

Thanks guys,
I still hope to get more info and learn if either seller had sold a really rare item or if they just sold the usual cuffs that were common in the day.
I am looking forward to Joe T's recollections of his dealings with these guys.
I am proud to have a few letters from Joe's Father in Law, Prynce and all or most of them is correspondence with Pop Reno, another cuff dealer that might be closer to being a pioneer in this hobby that we all enjoy. They are somewhat hard to read, but once I find the time, I will be rewarded as there is a wealth of information contained within.

All of this might develop into an article for the 08 Annual.
I am not even done reading the 2007 yet.

Stan, you have some great insight! I hope they will write about us in the 2048 Annual!

mark
O--O

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

I found several pics of McKees collection from the early 1970s. Not much unusual, except for a few slave items, 2 items that were used in british courts to hold prisoners while on trial, and sevreal reproduction cuffs (Houdini's bell cuff, Russian manacle, Tower Kahlke, Neck collar, alligator cuff, etc.) that I am pretty sure McKee made. I once owned an Oregon boot that i think he made, but I havn't found the picture. I just looked in my Boot file and I do have pics of it. I would scan and show them here but that would screw up your article. In addition, I don't think the pics will scan very well. He did have a Hiatt Nigerian pattern cuff, and that one has eluded me so far.
Stan

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

I have a few articles about Frank Reno in my collection, I'll see if I can find them. Reno was Norm Bigelow's mentor and friend and Norm has sent me a few odds and ends from Reno over the years.

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

You forget Trudel

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

Stan's right, Don Hinz had the infuriating habit - if not obsession - of stamping his name on everything he sold. I think it was just "HINZ" that he stamped, but can't be certain now. I dealt with him just the once, can't remember what I purchased, but Chris warned me that they'd be stamped with the guy's name - and of course he was right. Whatever it was I puchased, must have been 25-30 years ago but I only dealt with him that one time. No - I wouldn't regard him as a pioneer of collecting, in my limited experience of dealing with him, he was a dealer. But he did seem to get hold of some nice gear.
Seeing Patterson Smith mentioned, reminds me that I dealt with them one one occasion - that's where I got my H&R Supers. They were in mint conditon and came in the box! Well, have to confess that I threw the box away long ago (dammit), but the cuffs are still one of the prides of my collection.

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

for all :: RAY MCKEE was a collector, a fine gentleman, & his collection (at the time) was without a doubt one of the THREE or FOUR collections in the world outside of museums... he purchased many items from my father-in-law PRYNCE E. WHEELER & then many more items from me over the years.... he didn't want to sell his collection when he did, but as his loving wife & partner became very ill & without hesitation, he started selling his collection.... He, along with my father-in-law, & a few others ARE sorely missed....... DON HINZ & i hate to speak ill of the departed, was more of a HOUDINI collector & more of a dealer of restraints... yes, he seemed to stamp his last name on all restraints... he also had large INK stamps with his name & address ETC ETC & stamped his name all over the photocopies & his letters that he sent out to people whom he tried to peddle items to... that was all fine & well as each to their own.... I did buy alot of restraints from him for resale/trade in the early to mid 1980s, as he would set prices.... that pretty much ended as he got to where he would not set a price & would want your BEST OFFER...then say NOT ENOUGH - even when i would make an offer higher then the item was worth !!! go figure...then he would go to the next person & then the next shopping it around.... gee, that sounds like two other people i know....... FRANK ROSHON was more of a book dealer, but sold the AUSTRALIAN SAF LOK & the CHUBB ESCORT cuffs.... i could go on & on about DICK NORMAN, PATTERSON SMITH, STANLEY SMYTH, etc etc but i will find & give MARK some info & letters & let him run with it.... sorry to bore you all... joe

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

Just one more comment on Frank Roshon. I agree that he was a book dealer, but he happened to have barrels filled with Palmers and other restraints. My Griffin Bar cuff, a Romer handcuff, 2 palmers and some other exceptional pieces came from him. He would send a postcard listing an item or 2 and the price. If you bought it you would get another postcard with more cuffs to buy. If you didn't buy the cuffs it could be a year or more before he offered you another cuff. I bought a lot from him. I have several stories about Roshon, but I will save those for another time.
Stan

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

I remember being at a convention on time and Don had a Houdini cabinet photo for sale. He told one collector it was either $500 or $600, I forget. The collector than came to my table and told me the story. The collector asked me to go over and randomly ask for the price on the cabinet photo. Hinz said $200! I bought it.

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

KEVIN: sad to say, but the real price was only $100... !! i have fallen for that old trick myself more times then i want to admit .. LOL ... DON & his friend clipped you for an extra $100. !! just kidding.... yes, STAN you are correct, but i think MR. ROSHON kept his business to people east of ST. LOUIE ... joe

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

Hi Joe:
I know that Mark Lundblad (St. Paul, MN on the west side of the Mississippi) and Bill Liles, who was living in California at the time, also bought from Roshon.

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

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Joe,

I saw one in your catalog for twice the price, so I know I got a good deal.

I'm looking at a framed piece you sold me many moons ago. It's a signed Houdini letter and signed miniature Lord's Prayer. It still looks great.

If you have anything else, let me know, with a price.

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

I remember Ray McKee. He and I would correspond about different cuff we had made, I remember his Bell lock handcuff and Czar cuff which I believe Mike Griffin sold off recently. Ray enjoyed his handcuff collecting but also making many different handcuff and I had a one time, many wooden patterns he has made for getting cuffs cast. I guess as he got older he didn't want to make cuffs or couldn't and he commissioned me to make some for him. The most memorable was a Romer neck collar, He used to ask for two to be made of each item so he could sell one on. These would be marked TARRC and made in the 1980's.

Ian

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

My first in person dealing was with Don Hinz. What Joe says about being tough to deal with is quite true. Any one who bought from him has a story, the story that Kevin told is typical. I was just starting to get serious about collecting and I bought from him anyway,usually at top dollar. I think I did ok on a few items. After awhile he was glad to see me, (as it meant $ to him ). It was keys that he put his name on. He made pretty good working keys and keys cut from blanks, guess he was proud of his work and wanted to sign it. He told me that in the early days of collecting that he, Prynce Wheeler and Dick Norman were known as the big 3 of handcuff collecting.
With the help of Don Hinz, Lynn Collins,Prynce Wheeler and then Joe Tanner and Stan Willis I was getting a good collection. Ray Mckee had heard of me and called me and said he had some things to sell. I began buying from him.I was very happy as I was now buying from all the big guys. Some time later Ray called me and said he was selling his collection and sent me a list. I was second in line and scored some fine items. It took awhile for Ray to sell his entire collection as he pieced it out. I bought as much as I could and was pleased with everything.His prices were fair and no bs. I feel a friendship had developed. When showing my collection I will point to some items and say " I got that from Ray McKee".
When I look back when I was buying from these guys,I say these were the good old days, before and better then ebay.
Gordon

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

I, too, bought and dealt with Don Hinz at early 1980's
Chicago Collector's conventions. He had trouble setting prices. To one guy he'd quote $800, and the next person could buy it for $200. I bought my first Palmer, and several other cuffs from him. He was always good to me. He sold many many cuffs, and tons of paper ephemera. The saddest story was when he brought a semi to Collectors with the Heaney collection he bought, including Thurston's original scrapbooks, and tons of photos, hundreds of books, and piles of George posters..... He began setting up in the hallway outside the dealers room which was closed due to a handcuff lecture by Harry Monte. It was like feeding frenzy! People grabbing and fighting to get what they wanted. I saw people buy stuff, turn around and triple their money in two minutes.
Many found that by stacking a pile, with the good stuff on the bottom, Don would quote a price, and then they'd shove the top half of their stack off, and buy the best stuff for a
low price of half the quote. I bought many escape artist photos, a few books, and the worst part was that I saw Thurstons scrapbooks torn apart and go to the four winds.
Don sold a lot of great stuff, but could be difficult to deal with. Still, I remember him very fondly. Last I heard he is still around in Sheboygan, WI. He had one of Hardeen's milkcans too, along with a lot of other Hardeen items.

Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

It must have been in 1992 or 1993 when I was given the address of Ray McKee by another collector. At that time my collection was rather small, which I did not realize as my knowledge about what was out there was small as well. As I had nothing to offer and not much money to spend Ray and me never made a deal, but during our correspondence I was sent some photos and a list of his collection, which I would like to share here. The photos are not of the best quality, but should give an impression anyway of this great collection.

Michael

P.S. Sorry for bringing the thread a little out of shape!


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<img src=http://members.aol.com/michaelbuschwptl/mckee6>

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Hi,
As many of you know, I have been collecting cuffs for more than 20 years.
When talking with Stan, Joe T. and recently, Chris, the names Don Hinz and Ray McKee often come up. My knowledge of them is very limited. It seems that they were the pioneers in the cuff collecting world and I want to learn more about them. I did have the pleasure of meeting Larry Weeks that seems to be right there along side of them, but have not seen even a picture of them or know much about them.
Please let me know if they bought, sold, or traded any unusual or rare items with any of you or if you know when and where they got their start. Any info would be appreciated. I am sure this will be the start of an interesting thread.

Thanks
mark
O--O

Click to expand...

Hello Everyone,

I spoke to Ray about a year ago or so. I got the impression that he missed his collection quite a bit. He too reminisced about the esprit de corps of the handcuff collecting "community," one which I became aquainted with much later, of course.

Also, Ian, on May 5, 2007, 12:31 AM, you wrote:

"I remember Ray McKee. He and I would correspond about different cuff we had made, I remember his Bell lock handcuff and Czar cuff which I believe Mike Griffin sold off recently. Ray enjoyed his handcuff collecting but also making many different handcuff and I had a one time, many wooden patterns he has made for getting cuffs cast. I guess as he got older he didn't want to make cuffs or couldn't and he commissioned me to make some for him."

Ian, is there any chance you have the wooden pattern for that neat Czar cuff which you are referred too? I saw it at the first Indy meeting and thought it was very cool.

Thanks, Paul