The Forum at Handcuffs.Org

Hardware store chain on this item?

37 visible archived posts · 37 preserved total · topic ID 2062

Monica 29 May 2007

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... L:RTQ:US:1

michael griffin 29 May 2007

Hi, I dont know. I am the seller and while the chain is the type from a hardware store the work on the cuff looks original so this could either be:
a factory made from left over parts
a replacement made for an instituion
I wish i knew more but im blond

Monica 29 May 2007

Hardware store blonde or factory blonde? (-;

michael griffin 29 May 2007

Hi, factory blonde

Do you know how many blonde jokes there are?

none,
they're all true stories

Dorson 30 May 2007

Looks like the chain was added later is what I think. The chain links are of modern manufacturing, that is, links are bent by a machine and electro welded using resistive welding. I am willing to bet that the plating is Zinc too.

-Dorson

michael griffin 30 May 2007

hi dorson:
yes, the chain has to be modern. Im not sure its zink, looks like could be nickle but your probably right. The job is done so well it leads me to believe they were done in a shop

Crux 30 May 2007

MG, if you knew that they were modern, why did you represent them to me as "original from the factory," which "makes them so valuable"?!!!!

michael griffin 30 May 2007

hi, good question. I have always believed they were factory done. I dont know what year or where
I have owned these for a long time and have no reason to believe they were done amaturely.
Now that being said, I am always pleased and looking to learn and as dorson pointed out they are of a modern chain but, whats a modern chain 1940's? 50's? I dont know.
my travels and dealings with prisons, police depts and work camps have taught me that nothing is a surprise and that there is 'factory" stuff from the oddest places.
I have even seen "factory" made wrist stocks, the factory being on the grounds of the penitentary.

I cannot guarantee that tower made these with this chain as obviously it isnt the normal chain but, i have seen many many tower oddities assembled from disparate parts
so, who knows
i do know that I still am comfortable saying that these are factory made

Crux 30 May 2007

That's a lot of hogwash and doublespeak. You know the chain is not original and, yet, you told me it was. You also said it made the item more collectible. The selling price proves that untrue. You call yourself a handcuff expert and the master of escape, but can't escape the simple truth. Shame, shame.

Thanks for exposing this fraud, Dorson.

Anonymous 30 May 2007

#10

Not the 1st time Griffin has been caughtplaying fast and loose with the truth. It is his legacy on this board.

lauher 30 May 2007

#11

Michael

The leg iron certainly looks unusual. The hasps where the chain is attached look untouched. The chain is not that old with welds that look normal. The cuffs seem to be in great shape. I agree that it all looks professional, a factory job.

The cuffs have patent numbers so it is they were most likely manufactured in the 19th century by Tower, predating the Union Hardware or post Union hardware models.

So how does one reconcile these two seeming incompatible observations?
My guess, and it is only a guess, is that we have a refurbished cuff done in a highly professional manner. Someone took a damaged set of legirons and rebuilt them with a new chain. Thus they are what they look like, no more, no less.

So are they worth the money? It depends. If one is to have only one Tower leg iron in one's collection, you wouldn't want this one. But if one is a specialist it looks like a bargain. The cuffs are in beautiful condition and there is a story to tell. We may not know all the words to the story, but they may come with time. Most cuffs in a collection just sit there in the drawer doing nothing, those with a story are the ones we bring out for show.

So Michael, keep the goodies coming. Your friends and previous customers are all anxious to see what you put up next.

cheers
Joe

Unknown / guest 30 May 2007

#12

Crux 31 May 2007

#13

I can't believe you defend him, Joe. For the sake of a sale, the man knowingly lied to me and you say "keep the goodies coming." Reprehensible from all angles.

michael griffin 31 May 2007

#14

Hi Crux, thats a pretty big statement saying I knowing lied to you, I dont know you and if you feel that personally that i singled you out to lie to you via the internet than please never ever buy one of my items.
I have been in the circle of collectors for over 25 years, I would imagine that as friends and fellow enthusiasts most of the folks would vouch for me (boy if that doesnt leave me open)

But, just for you Crux since you were the only one that could see thru to my very hidden criminal plot to lie and swindle the fellow handcuff collectors I will admit it to only you here

Yes, I made those leg irons from scratch. I picked up the two matching shackels at an open market in istanbul, they were both painted black, frozen shut with rust and had no chain connectors. I then smuggled them out of the country to avoid paying the duty on them. I scoured the nation traveling by jet to no less then 13 different metal restore houses in an effort to get the shackels cleaned up and maybe in working order.
I then went to Home Depot and told them I need to find a chain that would fool all the knowledgable restraint collectors in the world, the braces wearing pimply faced missing tooth guy said how bout this one, I said yeah, this will mess with Crux.

I then chartered a private jet to Las Vegas and found that even they couldnt match the swivel connectors to make this look "factory" so I boarded a long flight to a continent down under to visit the one man in the world who could help me lie to Crux and pull of what looks to be the ultimate fraud in the history of collecting

It worked, after all the time, world travel and costs I think the piece may make 100 bucks
Crux, you caught me
I will have to make sure I never sell again

Edgeplay_Cgo 31 May 2007

#15

The chain is definitely modern, resistance welded chain, rather then the lapped and forge welded round link chain typical of Towers.

Resistance welded chain has probably been available from around the turn of the 20C, but those short pattern links look newer than that. If the chain is zinc electroplated, indicating really modern chain, it would be even more puzzling. If it's nickle plated, that doesn't indicate much, as the whole cuffs assembly may have been replated when they were built / rebuilt.

The quality of work on the hasps indicates that the chain was either installed at the time of manufacture, or by a highly skilled smith And the cuffs replated afterwards Correct me if I'm wrong - photos can conceal as much as they reveal - but there are no marks of the hasp assembly having been disassembled and reassembled.

I note that, on the right cuff of the photo, the lockplate seam is discernable. Would this indicate to you, that the lockplate had been removed and replaced at some point, or would this indicate post manufacture replating?

I can't imagine anyone going to that level of effort to create a fraudulent item. (Hell! I can't imagine anyone going to that level of effort to salvage a damaged pair of irons!) That is always a possibility for a multi thousand dollar item, but the money's not there for a hundred fifty buck item.

It looks like Crux discounted the cuffs over the odd chain, as normal Towers would go for more than that. I did the same. You beat me by a few bucks, although my snipe doesn't show up on the list.

I don't think anyone was cheated. These are an odd item. Does that discount them, as I and apparently Crux believed, or does it enhance them as Michael undoubtedly hoped? Beats hell outta me!

Crux 31 May 2007

#16

You can joke and deny all you want, Griffin, but the fact remains that, for the sake of a sale, you privately said to me the opposite of what you say here, publicly. That makes you a liar (again) at best. If you have a hard time getting your blonde head around that, it's your problem, not mine. And, you can take to the bank that I would never buy anything from you. But, it will be my pleasure to warn others.

michael griffin 31 May 2007

#17

crux, dont get your panties in such a wad.
I dont remember communicating with you directly
if I did I do not believe i would say anything to mislead you or any other buyer
perhaps you misunderstood what i had to say
I am fairly competent in knowing my handcuffs, I have owned several of the world's rarest cuffs as well as spent years listening and learning from the experts many of whom are on this board

Who are you? and why do you really feel that you have to make such a point
again, if there was a misunderstanding I apologize
Perhaps you could paste the actual conversation you and i had, if we had one again I dont recall

So, with these accusations please post it I am more than willing to accept blame if i made a goof
Best to you and I hope your day gets better
Michael
PS I will do fine without your purchases, most of my clients are rather knowledgable about what they are doing
again, what is your name?

Crux 31 May 2007

#18

Keep your panty fixations to yourself. No matter how many colors and ways you try to paint this, it doesn't change the fact that you lied plain as day. And, no, it was a "misunderstanding." Just dodgy dealings on your end.

michael griffin 31 May 2007

#19

Hi:
Will you please post the communication you and I supposedly had?
Its only fair as you are accusing me of lying

As I have stated before if I did wrong Im sorry and will own up to it
BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY I HAVE EMBARRASED MYSELF IN FRONT OF THE OTHER COLLECTORS BEFORE IN A DIFFERENT CITY ONCE so, you really cant embarrass me

I also ask you to post your name. Again if you are intent on dragging this out please rise to the occasion and let me or whomever know who you are and also please post the beguiling message I gave to you-I cant for the life of me recall it or you.

Wait, I just got a call from America's Most Wanted - something about a major handcuff fraud conspiracy
gotta run

Crux 31 May 2007

#20

You've lied to so many people about your ebay item that you can't figure out what you said to me? Stop playing w/ yourself, Griffin.

michael griffin 31 May 2007

#21

crux, this is done
you made accusations and didnt back them up
you wont show your name
best to you
michael griffin

Monica 31 May 2007

#22

Michael, I have seen the emails. You would be right to apologize and drop this like a hot potato.

michael griffin 31 May 2007

#23

Hey Monica/Crux:
I guess you are both the same person, a hot potato would be fun on a cold day, keeps the hands warm
anyway best to you both
and may the best identity win
michael

Monica 31 May 2007

#24

He is my husband, Homer. Nice try.

michael griffin 31 May 2007

#25

ok, so now we know you are both the same
are you willing to put up the email we supposedly exhanged?
or do you find it easier in life to hide in the dark with multiple personalities and badger people with nothing

Hey believe it or not life is fun, go out and try to get one
best
to you monica/crux

Monica 31 May 2007

#26

Looks like reading and comprehension are not your strong suit, Homer. No surprise. FWIW, we don't answer to you. He still has the emails and will do with them what he pleases, so, stop the lying. You know they exist.

Crux 31 May 2007

#27

To: master_of_escape

Question for item #230134548651 - Early Tower Legirons w/odd factory chains nt handcuffs

Q: What do you mean by "factory installed" chain? Is this the original chain? It is not the type of chain I have ever seen on cuffs or irons from that era.

Response from master_of_escape
master_of_escape( 192)
Positive feedback: 98.5%
Member since: Jan-13-98
Location: OH, United States
Registered on: www.ebay.com
Item: Early Tower Legirons w/odd factory chains nt handcuffs (230134548651)
This message was sent while the listing was active.
master_of_escape is the seller.
by factory installed i mean just that. It looks to be installed at the factory for what reason, i dont know that is what makes this item very collectible

To: master_of_escape

Re: Question for item #230134548651 - Early Tower Legirons w/odd factory chains nt handcuffs

Q: I know what factory installed means. Is it the original chain?

Response from master_of_escape
master_of_escape( 192)
Positive feedback: 98.5%
Member since: Jan-13-98
Location: OH, United States
Registered on: www.ebay.com
Item: Early Tower Legirons w/odd factory chains nt handcuffs (230134548651)
This message was sent while the listing was active.
master_of_escape is the seller.
in my opinion it is

michael griffin 31 May 2007

#28

Hi: thanks for posting now, if you had a name

I told you I believed that chain was installed at the factory
these were made up untill the 1940 and eventually shipped overseas for other countries
at the ends of the runs they would assemble from various parts

I think the key question you might have been trying to ask was do I maintain that these are factory original from the 1880's no of course not
But I still believe these are the chains that were used at the factory for whatever reason and again
it very well could have been made later with bits and pieces at another factory

I was trying to convey to you initially that I dont think they were done in a garage but, were done profesionally

thank you for posting now, if you would just grow up and post your name

Anonymous 01 Jun 2007

#29

Busted!

BDJ 01 Jun 2007

#30

MG, your answers here on the board are diametrically opposite of your private emails. You're in denial.

michael griffin 01 Jun 2007

#31

HI: I dont feel busted in the least
the person with the dual personalities one female, one male
hasnt posted any private emails as i asked or that they threatend
they simply pasted ebay stuff

Heres an idea if anyone is really convinced that I knowingly try to rip them off
I will stop selling items
its simple
OH yeah,
since I am such a bad guy
I stilll have no shame posting my real name or email address
how bout posting your name and the emails and quit hiding in your dark world
on the street you would be regarded as no more than a spineless piece of s
best
michael

Crux 01 Jun 2007

#32

Of course you don't feel busted. You have no conscience, no morals, no integrity. Your words - your lies - were in those emails, which came to me via our conversation through ebay. Proof is proof and it's staring you in the face. Your denials are truly Clintonian.

A bad guy? Yep, surely you are. A douchebag, even more so. Go back to Loserville.

Crux 01 Jun 2007

#33

And one more thing. Regarding your spineless comment: You can try and rip people off on the internet where you never have to meet anyone face to face, but you would never try that shit with me in person because I'd surely rip your skull off and shit in it. And, gladly, I'll meet you somewhere and we can find out about spines. Is this a threat? No, it's an offer.

michael griffin 01 Jun 2007

#34

Hi Crux,
wow did we not have our happy pill today?
too bad you cant admit who you are
thats ok, some people just dont have what it takes
best to you again

patrick-handboeienfreak 01 Jun 2007

#35

hi monica crux and michael griffin

leave it for what it is
item is sold, and the seller would be happy with it
otherwise he/she don't bid

no one here has the knowledge of all the cuffs exist
so we all make mistakes

have a nice day

don't fight there are several wars outside
is that not enough

best to all

Patrick-handboeienfreak

Hulk Hogan 01 Jun 2007

#36

I would like to see a tag team battle in the Octagon:
A last man standing match between Santini, Tanner, Crux, and Griffin.
Winner gets the Golden Cuffs

HH

Patches 01 Jun 2007

#37

my money is on Monica....
"hell hath no fury as a woman scorned"