The Forum at Handcuffs.Org

Looking to identify these cuffs & come along

41 visible archived posts · 41 preserved total · topic ID 2171

James 30 Jul 2007

I have a set of darby-style cuffs that i'm looking to identify:

I've looked through the photos on the site, and there are a few that are familiar. But nothing that fits exactly. The curved keyhole should help to distinguish it.
There are no other markings on the cuffs to help out.

Another item I have is a nipper with a wooden/metal handle made by Danneberg Petry & Co. from Newark, NJ:

I've searched all over for some way to identify this, but have come up with nothing.

Thanks for your help,
James

Jack.Tanis 30 Jul 2007

Dear James,

...a very rare one, by (George) Lutz, (Danforth H.) Royce, (Michael) Trenor and (Robert) Chadwick, of Columbus, Ohio, patent date 3 May 1870, patent number 102,563, titled "Improved Policeman's Nippers".

Cheers,

Jack
http://www.editing.org.uk/tanis/collectibles.htm

lauher 30 Jul 2007

Is that the key for the Darby? If so can you tell us more about the mechanism? I have never seen anything like it. And I have lots of Darbies.

Joe

silvermy 30 Jul 2007

http://blacksteel.com/hcs/index.cgi?sec ... t=9&mode=1

Chris Gower 30 Jul 2007

Never seen anything like it either in private collections or museums! What I am interested in is seeing a photo of how the end of the barel looks. Is it sealed or would it be possible to insert a simple hook to pull the bolt back? I would assume the strong spring that is normally used in standard Darbies has been replaced with a weaker spring in order that key opens them without too much force being needed?
The fact that the keyway is curved would possibly imply to me they were made by Griffin ( I did supply keys for York Museum to the Griffin solid '8' cuffs shown in Alex's book age 79) and the keyway here was curved I think Stan has a similar set but no too sure what the key or keyway looks like.
Chris Gower

Mikeintightpants 30 Jul 2007

The first thing I noticed in that pic of the Darbies was the key - it doesn't look right!

Mike
a.k.a. Mikeintightpants
Birmingham, England

Unknown / guest 30 Jul 2007

Guess I hadn't looked at the pic properly - and I've now read Chris's post - never seen anything like 'em before!

Mike
a.k.a. Mikeintightpants
Birmingham, England

Stan Willis 30 Jul 2007

I doubt that the key is original, and I've asked the owner to post a better pic of the keyhole and the top of the locking tube. Attached is a pic of the keyway on my Griffin Bar cuff. (Chris: Picture is from my CD.)
Stan

james 30 Jul 2007

need to get out my magnet

James 31 Jul 2007

#10

The mechanism is smooth, though the key only turns counter-clockwise about a quarter turn before the cuff can be unlatched.

It takes a reasonable amount of force to push back the spring to unlock the cuff.
I'm not sure how else to describe the mechanism.

James 31 Jul 2007

#11

That curved keyhole looks very similar to the one on these cuffs.

I'm about to post a message that has new pics of them, which may help.

James 31 Jul 2007

#12

Thanks again for your help figuring out what these items are.

I will be selling a few items on eBay, and have already posted a few there. My eBay username is jamesnedila, in case you are interested.

The story behind these items is they are from my late father's collection. He used to collect locks, and would mainly buy locks without keys so he could open them and match them with new keys.

As his collection grew, he would see 'interesting' items at antique stores throughout the Lower Mainland of BC and Washington state. This is where the handcuffs are from.

I am a somewhat amateur in regards to handcuffs, so this site has been great for identifying these items for what they are.

In regards to the Darby cuffs, here are a couple more pics as requested.
Also note, there are no holes on the locking barrel, other than the keyhole and where the cuff bracket joins the barrel.

Looking down the end of the key:

The top of the cuff:

The keyhole up close:

joe tanner 31 Jul 2007

#13

very interesting home made or altered darby handcuffs.... looks like trhe job was done fairly well.... joe

james junk 31 Jul 2007

#14

more junk from james

Anonymous 31 Jul 2007

#15

James's Junk is Justified!

Anonymous 31 Jul 2007

#16

Ummmm, yeah, thank you james.

James 31 Jul 2007

#17

So you're saying this set is a fake?
Hmmm, ok, I won't be selling them then.

Thanks for letting me know about these.

I have a few other items i'd like to get your feedback on.
I'll post those later today.

lauher 31 Jul 2007

#18

James
Don't pay any attention to anonymous postings. Your cuffs are not fake, they are just unknowns. They will bring a good price on eBay. Just post lots of pictures and they will sell.

Good luck

Joe

Edgeplay_Cgo 31 Jul 2007

#19

I wouldn't use the word Fake. I don't know what they'd be faking. They appear to be well made. Maybe they're a one-off, or a prototype. The locking arrangement is certainly unique. I wonder about its strength, given the sise and location of the key and keyhole, but that's an issue that just adds more curiosity.

If you plan on tossing them out, toss them my way.

Anonymous 31 Jul 2007

#20

Fake as griffin.

joe tanner 31 Jul 2007

#21

JAMES: if you are referring to what i said, i said altered or homemade.... if you want to call them FAKED, that is ok with me.... as your added photos are not very good & really a waist of posting them, i can only go by what little i do see.... it appears that they bows may have been altered or handmade.... it looks like a plug of metal was welded on the old actual keyway & then ground down and finely filed & smoothed as the metal does not seem to match..... also the opposite end (hammer head) looks like it is smaller so it may also have been filed in, ground down & polished.... but before that, the work of taking the plug out, shortening the bolt, & making a cut in the bolt for the new type key to catch & move so that the bow would open all had to be done.... as i said,a ingenious thought & had work went into the design & making of the cuff.... of course the pin that the key fits over also looks newer.... all in all, a nice item.... now i suppose the PAKI outfit & others will duplicate it.... i could be OLD OLD & ORIGINAL, but i have my doubts... i suppose once again i will catch hell for my comments... joe

James 31 Jul 2007

#22

I've figured out how to take some better pics from my camera, so here they are:

joe tanner 01 Aug 2007

#23

nice !!! much better photos....man they are nice !!! i stand corrected... slap them on EBAY & you should do very well.... joe

Edgeplay_Cgo 01 Aug 2007

#24

Thanks for posting those pictures. Your photography has improved dramatically.

The cuffs do look contemporary Indian, but they have some twists I've never seen.

The bows and chain padeyes are typical Indian flat stock work. Most of the stuff you see has been artificially rusted to age them. Yours look like they've had the rust cleaned off, but you can still see the heavy pitting on the barrel.

The closure plate at the hinge end of the barrel is obviously electro welded in place. A very delicate welding job, bu you can still see what appears to be flux residue. The hammer heads may have been welded on, too. I can't tell about the backstraps.

These don't look like they've been altered. They look like they've been designed with a key, from the get-go. That makes them interesting. Maybe, in a month, we'll see them all over eBay.

Twazid Mahmoud 01 Aug 2007

#25

Enough with the pictures. It's Paki crap from the get go.

James, you are one weird dude.

Anonymous 01 Aug 2007

#26

Tanner:

I'm damned glad to know that you have the perfect collection of everything.

Don 01 Aug 2007

#27

yes Put Them on Ebay who Knows what Joe might Pay For Them. has anyone asked Stan about these ?

Chris Gower 01 Aug 2007

#28

Have to strongly disagree with previous posting saying your cuffs are Indian or Pakistani. Firstly I know of no copies where a strap hinge is made - this method of manufacture went out probably about 1860? when the designs were changed to the forged hinge. Okay we know that fake strap hinges were used by R>C from 1940 to 1945. The argument that they are made from flat bar is also wrong. I have two very early Hiatt Pattern cuffs that also have this type of flat bows to them. I have often wondered whether these were the Hiatt model 55 that were advertised and were cheaper than their standard 104 pattern.
The method used to close the end is difficult to determine but I do not think it was welded and am sure that if you look closely you will see a very fine brass joint - although over the years this may have faded. I would be interested to see how the top cap is held in and whether there are any markings such as a letter, also whether there are a series of 'Y' or 'X' type punches to hold it in place.
I would guess they were made in England almost certainly by one of the great Birmingham handcuff makers probably between 1800 and 1830?
The 2nd set of photos are excellent and they will get a good price on ebay - just a word of warning do not be tempted to end the auction early if you get approached with what you may think is a good offer.
Chris Gower

Edgeplay_Cgo 01 Aug 2007

#29

The backstrap hinge went out of fashion in Europe and America as better machines came into play, but they are still a practical small shop solution for the same reason they always have been. They're easy to make. I'm half convinced that someone in India or Pak is making semi-nice repros of old restraints. There's suddenly a lot of hand forged puzzle lock leg irons on the market.

I agree, the end cap may be brass brazed, rather than welded. That flux residue I may have seen, may actually be braze metal. That could put them older, but doesn't guarantee it.

Look in the square hole at the end of the bow. You'll see tool marks, apparently file marks. There is also some evidence of file marks on the sides of the bows. Those are more consistent with the Indian work I've seen, than with European craftsmanship. But the swivel looks better than typical Indian work.

So now, you've got me questioning again.

I agree, don't let anyone talk you into ending the auction early.

These could be something unique, or the market could be flooded with them in another month's time.

cuffman69 01 Aug 2007

#30

I feel these are the real deal. True they do lack a little in the quality of construction of European Darbys but way ahead of the Indian / Asian examples. I feel that these could be a prototype to attempt to resolve the threaded key issue which makes opening Darby style cuffs a somewhat slow process.

The pitting does look to be authentic and the cuffs have been cleaned. What appears to be weld flux could possibly be the residue of oxidation which due to its location on the cuff evaded the cleaning process.

The key looks to be the correct period but remains in very good condition. Keys kept with the cuffs tend to age / oxidise in a similar way.... keys not kept with the cuffs tend to get lost!!!

Also worth noting is that the key holes are not true opposites so that only one cuff mechanism was used and not a left and right pair.

When I read this post I new I had seen a pair of darbys with a key hole in the side of the barrel but couldn't for the life of me think where I had seen it until I remembered that it was actually in my own collection. My pair has made in England stamped on and is particularly small in size but is unfortunately only a pair of childrens toy cuffs but never the less ......

James in my opinion you have a nice cuff for sale. The fact you have other nice items for sale which belonged to your late father only adds to the credibility of this cuff. Like a few others say ... if selling on eBay DO NOT BE TEMPTED BY OFFERS TO SELL EARLY. YOU WILL LOOSE MONEY !!!

Stan Willis 01 Aug 2007

#31

Since Don mentioned my name, I will add my 2 cents worth. I think Chris Gower is right on, and I agree with his comments. It's a very rare item.
Stan

James 02 Aug 2007

#32

I appreciate everyone's feedback on these particular items.

As mentioned in this thread, I do have quite a few items for sale on eBay right now. If you're interested, wander over and have a look. If you have any questions about the items, by all means send me an email.

I'm in the process of preparing other items from the collection, but these are mostly antique locks which are much harder to identify. (if anyone knows of a similar site to handcuffs.org for locks, please send me an email!)

I think i'll be posting the nipper and cuffs to eBay once all the current items have completed.

Since there has been so much interest on this forum and over email, i'll post a note to this forum when the items are for sale.

Thanks again,
James

Anonymousini 22 Aug 2007

#33

Has anyone else seen these on ebay. Either I missed them or they never made it to ebay.
Are they still for sale ?

James 05 Sep 2007

#34

I have now listed these two items for sale on eBay.

They can be found here:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0156459704
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0156459725

Thanks for all your help, and happy bidding!
James

Ian McColl 09 Sep 2007

#35

Hi, the handcuff you have is called a "Whitshire" pattern. My reference is an old lock or tool catalogue which I haven't been able to locate as yet.

Only a drawing of the side view of the darby handcuff was shown with the keyhole on the side.
Hope this help. I will post my reference as so as I can.

Ian McColl

James 10 Sep 2007

#36

Interesting... If you do find a reference to this online, can you post it here?

Even though the cuffs are for sale, i'd still like to know more about them.

lauher 12 Sep 2007

#37

James

You did pretty good on your auctions. Congratulations to you and to your buyers. Everyone is happy. (Well not exactly everyone. Some of us got outbid.)

Joe

Mark Lyons 12 Sep 2007

#38

Thank you James,
I was looking forward to your auction and am glad to have won the nipper.
I was outbid the first time one of these appeared on eBay and was very disappointed by that fact until now.
You did well by showing the cuffs here at this website and let the collectors discuss it for awhile before listing them for auction.
Both items received good attention and was listed at an excellent time. EBay has had sort of a slump as there have been some nice items, but nothing of this caliber in a long time.
I hope (and many others) that you will soon be offering more high quality items such as these.

mark
O--O

James 12 Sep 2007

#39

I'm just glad I can put these items into someone's hands who can appreciate them.
Congratulations to the winning bidders!

As far as more items in the future, I am still working my way through my father's collection.
There may be a few more hidden gems packed away in boxes.

If anything else interesting comes up, i'll be sure to mention it to you all.

Mark Lyons 12 Sep 2007

#40

Dear Mr. Anonymous,

You stated that it seems like all cuffs are for my collection.
I wish that were the case, but fact is I miss out on many of them.
In Joe's photo synopsis of the noteworthy cuffs of the month, I am lucky to be able to identify one or two of the cuffs and claim them as an addition to the collection.
Believe me, I wish I could number 5 or 6 of these gems a month.
I try to give a good shot at them, but only get a fair amount in return. I think that I am bidding high enough, but not always is it the adequate amount.
If I fail to win a nice one, I hope the item goes to another good home of someone I know so that see it one day or possibly buy/trade it in the future.
Thank you for your concern.

mark
O--O

Mark Lyons 12 Sep 2007

#41

OOPS

This message was intended for a different thread.

mark
O--O