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newbie calling all security personnel

27 visible archived posts · 27 preserved total · topic ID 2234

u/c crimedawg 13 Sep 2007

start my new job in loss prevention at a dept. store on monday. finally. can't wait to make that 1st collar.

any other uc/pc security peoples on board? advice for a newb from the vets?

germanhandcuffs.tk 13 Sep 2007

Always be sure that the action you are taking is right and legal. Even when you have a little doubt, don't go there.

If possible, always request for back-up before busting someone.

Ad last but not least: at first take care of your own safety, and second the safety of others.

Regards,

Dirk

Mr. Anonymous 14 Sep 2007

When they take a candy bar just 'Cuff-em and stuff-em'! That's good advise straight from "MR. ANONYMOUS"!

The Amazing Michael 14 Sep 2007

"When they take a candy bar just 'Cuff-em and stuff-em'! That's good advise straight from "MR. ANONYMOUS"!"

MR. ANONYMOUS, are you out of your mind????? You can't do that!!!!! You have to cuff them, "BEAT THEM", THEN stuff them. Use a phone book when you beat a confession out of them, it works GREAT! =P LOL!

Cheers, Mike

Edgeplay_Cgo 14 Sep 2007

With a WET phone book. Actually, if you use a thin phone book as a buffer, it doesn't leave marks, and still hurts like hell. This was told to me by a small town police chief.

Kinda on topic, I designed part of a new police station for him with real jail cells. When I was visiting him, he had a prisoner confined by handcuffing him to a water pipe in the mens room.

Mr. Security 15 Sep 2007

Well Dennis, I hope he had some good cuffs when he cuffed the guy to the pipe! LOL. Store security is a fun job. I get the feeling that I help "keep the costs down" when I stop a shoplifter. BTW my Smith & Wesson model 90's work great. It's too bad they don't make those anymore.

Mr. Security

Mr. Anonymous 15 Sep 2007

Mr.Security,

Why not really keep the costs down by making sure the perp. never comes back?
My S&W Model 686 works perfectly well and they still do make them!

Mr. Anonymous

u/c crimedawg 15 Sep 2007

thought i was at the handcuff forum for a minute. turns out to be a place for failed comedians. silly me.

Edgeplay_Cgo 15 Sep 2007

Say, did I tell you the one about the ...

[WHACK!] Owwww.

I suspect your post is suffering from the fallout from our last flamewar.

Training, for most security personnel, is hard to get. Your boss usually cheaps out, leaving you twisting in the wind if the spit hits the fan.

There are really three areas of concern, the tactical, technical, and legal.

I'd start backwards, with the legal. Have a solid, serious discussion with your employer. Learn what you are allowed to do and what you are not. If your employer isn't willing or able to provide you with a comfort level of knowing what the law is, including providing you with the text of the statute, then a visit to your own lawyer may be in order. Beware that just reading the statute is not enough. Do you know what other statutes you have not read? What the case law is on the subject? Your l;awyer should be able to give you a solid briefing. It may be a couple hundred bucks you can't afford to spend, but that are well spent.

Lawyers cost even more after you need them. [Wry Grin]

I'd want to know what equipment your employer provides, what you are allowed to use, and what you may want to tuck into your pocket, just in case everything goes into the pot.

I'd want to know exactly what the store's policies are WRT apprehending suspects and what you are legally allowed to do. On another board there is a lively discussion going on, about the legality of store exit bag checks. Many of us believe they are voluntary, and the customer has no requirement to submit to search, and that refusing does not rise to the level of articulable suspicion. On yet another board, we are arguing about the legality of requiring an individual to produce identification, and throwing SCOTUS rulings about.

(No, I don't spend all my time talking about this stuff. It all just hit the fan at once.)

What procedures do you propose to use in physically restraining someone, particularly someone who is unwilling to be restrained. I had a moron of a guard come up behind me and try to apply a surprise choke hold. That was an assault with deadly force. It could have cost him his life. It did cost them a smashed glass case and a bent guard. I'd prefer to have backup when trying something like that, and to be exquisitely polite.

Good luck, and stay safe.

grenchat 15 Sep 2007

#10

This shoplifter wound up stealing a massage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T-vuk5r ... ted&search=

Turn up your speakers and enjoy!

Jason

u/c crimedawg 15 Sep 2007

#11

my training supv. showed us that vid weeks ago. she pointed out all the things that were wrong with the arresting guards'procedures and techniques or lack thereof. they didn't appear to have any training at all unless you count "put yer hands behind your back". we re-enacted this scenario in training over and over. by the end of training we could all subdue manuever and cuff the subject by ourselves with the techniques our supv. taught us. it was amazing that it took those 2 that long to apprehend him. i was embarrased for them.

germanhandcuffs 15 Sep 2007

#12

Youtube shows a lot of difficult arrests.
See how (well-trained!!) British and American policemen struggle around (and worse) with their suspects:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=AcaW6YZZ99I

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=l5_ihnWkDLo

Anonymous 15 Sep 2007

#13

Brit cops always need the assistance of 10 other cops in order to achieve what 1 or 2 good cops can do.

Edgeplay_Cgo 15 Sep 2007

#14

It sounds like you're getting some serious training. That's good.

As for using ten cops to make a bust, that's the smart way to do it, if you can. It's not your job to get into a fight, it's your job to apprehend with as little drama as possible. "If it's a fair fight then you haven't prepared properly." [George S. Patton] Mobbing the guy can prevent your getting hurt, and prevent his getting hurt.

Brian 15 Sep 2007

#15

Dennis: Could you perhaps post a link to the other forum having the discussion about store exit searches? I'd be interested in reviewing it.

At the risk of being flamed in effigy, I'll admit I'm one of the super bad guys, namely, a lawyer. While I've got a general business practice and hence don't actively do criminal law, I do represent a number of retail businesses and the issue of security guards, what they can and cannot do, does come up from time to time.

Private security guards are not law enforcement officers, that is, agents of the government, and hence are not subject to all of the Constitutional restrictions that regular police forces are supposed to abide by. Regulation of security guard activities are left solely to the individual states. Some states have no regulations whatsoever, so the security guard is in exactly in the same position as an ordinary citizen. Other states, however, have adopted laws and regulations in this area.

In Texas (where I am), security companies must be licensed by the state, carry insurance, etc. For their employees, they must pass a criminal background check and receive approved training before being allowed to carry OC spray, a nightstick or a firearm. While there is no state regulation about handcuffs, or even basic arrest or detention, most reputable security companies have some sort of training program here as well. How this training compares to what is done at police academies, I have no idea.

So, while there is little if any "legal" uniformity in this area, as has been pointed out, there's no substitute for common sense and not only is there safety in numbers, there's more fun too. Just last weekend, at one of my saloon clients, a patron decided to get in a fist fight with the owner. The bartenders, waiters and even some of the customers all joined together to subdue the idiot. Not having any handcuffs available, they used duct tape, and I understand it was rather effective. When the police arrived, they didn't bother to put their cuffs on him, but just hauled him off to jail as he was in his "not NIJ approved restraints."

Edgeplay_Cgo 16 Sep 2007

#16

It's in
http://p076.ezboard.com/fhistorypolitic ... =1&stop=25

You may have to join the board. It's a right wing politics and military board stocked with some pretty interesting people. Some of us are certainly certifiable. Present company included

Brian 16 Sep 2007

#17

Thanks Dennis.

After reviewing that other forum, I would like to suggest that all security officer questions hereafter be taken there. It seems an appropriate venue for the same.

Let's stick to stuff about handcuffs around here, okay, boys and girls?

Anonymous 16 Sep 2007

#18

Brian, it's not up to you what we can talk about. If you don't like the topic stay off the thread. Nobody told you to take it elsewhere for telling lawyer stories.

u/c crimedawg 16 Sep 2007

#19

lawyers and duct tape. now there's a thread i could get into.

my thread is relevant to handcuffs. we have threads by and about escape and bondage artists, police officers and law enforcement and collectors and historians, retailers and traders. some of these people actually use them and don't just talk about them, so my thread is no less relevant. if mr. lauher thinks the topic is inapropriate, he can delete the thread and i will harbor no ill will.

Howy 16 Sep 2007

#20

I believe that the person in the video mentioned above later died at the scene after being restrained.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=l5_ihnWkDLo

It happened in Cincinnati, OH in the White Castle Parking lot on Paddock Road where Vine Street and North Bend Road intersect.

Some people are unable to breath with their hands cuffed behind them.

Note he was also refering to his mother early and later calling for her.

Since then the Cincinnati Police Department has had training in how to deal with special people.

It was a sad situation.

Howy
Cincy

Edgeplay_Cgo 16 Sep 2007

#21

That guy definitely got the snot beat out of him, byt he was resisting. I'd have to see the medical examiner's report before I could make an informed comment about the cause of death, but note that some of those head shots could be lethal. Was one of the officers whacking him with a flashlight?

Positional asphyxia is more controversial. I've not studied the subject, byt I understand there are authorities who claim it never happens. Lawyers for the deceased obviously have claimed it DOES happen and did happen to their dead client. That's an area that can put lawyers' kids through college.

Any time you get into physical combat, it's a bad situation and things can get worse. Things getting better is probably too much to hope for. [wry grin]

Anonymous 16 Sep 2007

#22

He died because he was a fat bastard who overworked his heart trying to beat the cops.

Rodney King 16 Sep 2007

#23

Joe, its about time to lock this thread.

r. denny 16 Sep 2007

#24

or, just lock you out. this thread is doing just fine.

Mr. Security 16 Sep 2007

#25

Me and my store manager had to subdue an overweight shoplifter once. I could barely get my old Valor cuffs on him but they did work because the chain is longer than my Smith & Wessons. He put up a fight at first but became tired pretty quickly. I'm still keeping my old Valor cuffs in my bag because they have three chain links instead of two like my Smith & Wesson's. I figure if I get a hefty person again, I'll need them for sure.

Mr. Security

Edgeplay_Cgo 16 Sep 2007

#26

Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. The new S&W Model 1 have a different bow, allowing for a 25% larger and a 25% smaller wrist. That hump on the back allow them to fit a larger and a smaller wrist.

Other than that, it's duct tape and binder twine.

Mr. Security 17 Sep 2007

#27

Isn't the problem usually getting the hands behind the back, not the wrist size? With my Valor's I have three chain links whereas the S/W only have two. I guess if you have to, you get two sets??

Mr. Security