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Lilly Question

33 visible archived posts · 33 preserved total · topic ID 2359

Franklin 20 Dec 2007

After seeing the Lilly handcuffs and leg irons that are popping up on eBay, I began wondering: who made them?

On page 44 of the Handcuff Annual 2006 there's an illustration of a trade advertisement regarding them:

Handcuff Kings and Magicians!
For Sale
The United States Navy Handcuff. Used in the Civil War by Sergeant of Marines, Lilly, who died with a pair on him.
Only a few left. In good working order. Price complete with key $2. Extra keys 25 cents a piece.
Wm. Schonberger
1020 Prospect Ave., New York

I understand that the 8 Lincoln conspirators were imprisoned before trial on board an ironclad monitor warship moored in the Potomac River, so it's logical that they would be confined in the type of handcuffs and leg irons used by the navy, but where did they come from? Navy blacksmiths? Rankin? Providence Tool? Ian McColl's great-great-great grandfather?

Also, does anyone have a date for the foregoing advertisement?

Stan Willis 20 Dec 2007

Lilly irons were used on the Lincoln Consprators, and they are in the collections of The Smithsonian.
Stan

Jack.Tanis 20 Dec 2007

Hello,

That the Lincoln assassination conspirators were restrained in Lilly irons is well-documented.

Details regarding the identity, life and military branch of Lilly, or however the name correctly is spelled, at this point remain conjecture and lack known, substantiated evidence.

Cheers,

Jack
http://www.editing.org.uk/tanis/collectibles.htm

Unresolved image reference ↗

Stan Willis 20 Dec 2007

These are 3 of the Lilly Irons at the Smitsonian. Note that they are each slightly different from the others.

http://www.handcuffsandbadges.com

Stan Willis 20 Dec 2007

Maybe the pictures will turn up on this one:

These are 3 of the Lilly Irons at the Smithsonian. Note that they are each slightly different from the others.

http://www.handcuffsandbadges.com

Mark Lyons 21 Dec 2007

I have two Lilly's
One has the Roman Numerals stamped on one of the inside bars and the other has no such markings.
I would like to hear from those who have a Lilly or two, how many have the numbers on their cuffs as opposed to those examples without the numbers.

Thanks

mark
O--O

holstcollection 21 Dec 2007

Hi

I have the Romanian numbers stamped inside my Lilly.

Lars

www.holstcollection.com

Stan Willis 21 Dec 2007

Both of mine have Roman Numerals, but they are made quite a bit different. One has a smooth finish and appears hand forged. The other finish has a rougher texture, like the parts were cast.
Stan

Paul Reardon 21 Dec 2007

Hi Mark and All,

My Lily's have the Roman numerals VI on the inside of each of the swinging "arms." The numerals are somewhat irregular and appear to be cut in or pressed in with the end of a chisel. The numerals were certainly not made by Roman numeral or letter stamps. I mention this because at the first Indy convention I got a chance to take a look at an iron on Joe Tanner's table and those numerals (if I am remembering correctly) looked much more regular than mine. I got the impression that they were made with stamps or at least made by someone who took some care to make the markings regular, neat and a bit stylized. Maybe it's simply an issue of the "handwriting skills" (or literacy) of the given blacksmith, or he couldn't find the stamps that day, etc.

Paul

Grandpa 21 Dec 2007

#10

Stan Willis 21 Dec 2007

#11

My cuffs are marked by hand. No stamp was used. I don't recall seeing ones with Roman Numerals that had a "Stamped" number.

Paul Reardon 21 Dec 2007

#12

Thanks for the info, Stan. What I probably saw on Joe T's table were numerals that were just more refined than mine. The current ebay item has markings that are also neater than mine.
Best Wishes, Paul

Ron Spitz 22 Dec 2007

#13

The two Lilly's I have are very small in wrist size. One has a Roman Numeral IX or XI and the other, the smallest, has a stamped 6 or 9 depending which way you are looking at thiem.

Ron

Anonymous 23 Dec 2007

#14

Well, it seems Lilly cuffs are not so rare after all

Bruce thomson 23 Dec 2007

#15

I dont have a lilly iron, That doesn't prove they are rare, but I kind of lean towards that opinion.
Maybe if I root through this five ton box of carberry cuffs there might be a lilly in there.....

Henry 24 Dec 2007

#16

Well, here's another one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GENUINE-LILLY-CIVIL ... dZViewItem

Anonymous 26 Dec 2007

#17

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=008

And this one didn't even make the $500 reserve price.

Yes, truly rare.

Franklin 26 Dec 2007

#18

Stan:

The pictures you have of Lilly handcuffs from the Smithsonian, I'm rather interested in those. Not that I will be able to purchase them, but a detail I've begun to notice.

Do you have, through the museum, any more information on those three sets of cuffs that you can share?

Thanks,

Franklin

Stan Willis 26 Dec 2007

#19

I did not get the pictures myself from the Smithsonian, so I have no additional information. The pictures came from a friend who was doing research at the Museum and obtained the pics for me. It was at least 25 years ago that I got them, and there was a pretty stiff charge for them.
Stan

lauher 31 Dec 2007

#20

Joe Tanner sent the following message and photo.

"JOE: hope all is very well..... see attached photo..... one of my LILLY hand irons is marked -- J.H.L. - ... in fact, i believe that you saw this LILLY at the last INDY show that i attended.....several years ago, i did some research on the net & the best result that i got was that the initials stand for JOHN - HORACE - LILLY .... who was a SARGENT in the NAVAL military etc during the civil war...... i do not remember where or how i found the info as my computer went down on me & i just stopped there.... so if you would, post the photo & indicate what i have said & see if any of the folks want to research it...... take care... joe"

----------------------------------------

Joe T.
Thanks for the photo. It is very interesting. Does anyone else know anything about John Horace Lilly?
Joe L.

Mark Lyons 31 Dec 2007

#21

I was going to lay down some good money that the initials stood for Joseph H. Lauher.

mark
O--O

Joe Lauher 31 Dec 2007

#22

Mark

And what does the "H" stand for?

Joe

Fred 31 Dec 2007

#23

Handcuff Joe Handcuff Lauher
Happy&Healthy New Year To Everone!!
And may this year be the year you get that one cuff you always wanted!!!
ALL THE BEST!!!

Mark Lyons 01 Jan 2008

#24

YEAH!...What Fred said!

mark
O--O

Brad Darling 03 Jan 2008

#25

Mark, I have two pair. One very large like the top one Stan pictured and one very small one.

The large one is stamped "XXIV" (24, I guess) and has a "T" stamped underneath the 24, on all three pieces. The id of the cuffs are 3 3/16" x 2 1/2".

The small set is marked "I", nothing else and it, too, is on all three pieces. The id of the cuff is 2 1/2" x 1 7/8". It is about a quarter inch shorter than the big set.

Both appear to have been made by the same gorilla with a hammer.

Brad

Chris Gower 23 Feb 2009

#26

Okay guess you would never have thought that over a year latter you would get a reply to where the advert appeared that is featured in the 2006 Annual.
Well looking through my material (actually looking for the Horst Patents - Ref Stans question), I came across the advert and it appeared in The Conjurors Monthly Magazine page 347. I did have the original bound books at one time and seem to remember they were published between 1906-1908
I am sure several Houdini Memorabilia collectors will be able to confirm which volume they were in.
Sorry for the delay!!!
Chris Gower

Spencer 25 Feb 2009

#27

Franklin

The Lincoln conspirators were indeed confined in Lilly irons while on board the "Montauk" then moored on the Potomac river. The ship was in sight of the Government Asylum for the Insane which is now known as St. Elizabeth's. Civil War author and historian Michael Kauffman speculates that the Lilly irons in question were obtained from that institution and used on the conspirators. Apparently at that time, "irons" were not routinely carried on ships as standard equipment.

Steve Santini 25 Feb 2009

#28

This is certainly going to bring out the usual catcalls etc but irons being used on sailing vessels predates the U.S. Civil War by many, many years and they were more or less standard on many military vessels in many widely sperated parts pf the globe.

The H.M.S. Victory had various sets and some even permanently fixed to the deck and she was not a slaver ship but a military war ship older than the 1860's.

The tradition goes back even farther and it was not only to hold prisoners perhaps captured in battle but also to punish crew members for infractions.

Documentation exists that states that crew members were often loaded with heavy irons as a form of punishment.

Hence the old sea faring term, "Clapped in irons."

While it is true that in many early European insane asylums, particularly in England, the inmates were routinely shackled and chained I have yet to uncover any evidence that this was common practice in the U.S.A. during the mid 1800's.

Indeed this author is surmising.

It is only logical that many sailing vessels, particularly warships of the period, would have been outfitted with various types or styles of "irons."

Recorded history backs this up.

Steve Santini

don't know nothing 25 Feb 2009

#29

cat calls abound because here we are once again talking strictly about the lilly & mr know it all who knows nothing spouts off about the earlier shackles on ships like none of us know anything. guess most of us are moroons & mr know nothing thinks that he must educate us. most here more then likely know as much if not more then he.

Steve Santini 25 Feb 2009

#30

No name + no sense + no brain = 1 no life loser.

How typical.

Steve Santini

jbushey 26 Feb 2009

#31

HI all,
I own one of Houdini's Lily irons, which sat in the Appleton museum from
Houdini-Hardeen-Sid providence. I believe it was indeed Harry's because it
has a unique locking mechanism. I think it may have been one of his handcuff-king breakers. The normal bolt was replaced with a plug-8 plug type of locking bolt, with two holes for a two-pronged key. The original brass hand-made key came with it. I was aware of it when the Sid Radner auction occurred, but the locking bolt side was hidden from view. I got if for a good price, not much more than a regular Lily goes for. pIctures of it on my website: Under the handcuff section.
www.cpinternet.com/~jbushey

bob 26 Feb 2009

#32

steve, you are correct as usual. i have seen the bilbo's on HMS Victory fixed to the deck. as for sailing vessels carrying 'irons' of course they did, i would have thought more so in a war situation. the brass restraints i have seen over the years with the 'broad arrow' military markings would make them more suitable to a salt water environment. i have looked through old chandlers catalouges and found darby type restraints offered in various sizes for civilian ships. so i would think it most unusual for military ships not to have them on board.

Steve Santini 26 Feb 2009

#33

I have always had the feeling that the reason the Lilly restraints had the lead plug the bolt screwed into was because these restraints were made almost exclusively for the Navy and iron screwed into lead will ensure that the threads of the bolt and nut do not rust in the salt air and become fused.

I have read one author saying the plug was lead so that the prisoner could not rap the restraint repeatedly and cause the bolt to unscrew but I never felt this was the driving reason behind why the plug was lead.

Restraints exist that have locking iron screw bolts that screwed into iron threaded nuts and it really is not all that easy to rap them and get the bolt to completely unscrew.

Just my opinion but I think the lead plug with iron bolt combo was because these were used in a salt air environment on Naval ships.

It would be nice one day to find out for sure.

Cheers, Steve