The Forum at Handcuffs.Org

Lilly Leg Irons or not?

16 visible archived posts · 16 preserved total · topic ID 2800

Anonymous 10 Dec 2008

Hello everyone,

today I was at the customs office and picked up a pair of leg irons that I had bought on ebay about two weeks ago.

When I placed my bid on the item I considered them to be a "normal" set of Lilly leg irons, but once I had them in my hands I realized that they are much smaller than the set I already have. Besides this these irons do not have the lead "plugs" at the bottoms of the lockcases, whereas the keyhole area looks rather identical.

Comparing the two halves of my new set of irons with each other it gets obvious that they are different in size regarding the width of the lockcases.

I have the following questions and would be happy to read your thoughts about them:

- Are my new leg irons really Lilly irons?

- If they are, are they an older style compared with the irons I already had?

- Were the lead plugs in Lilly hand and leg irons factory made or added later?

- In case you consider the irons not to be Lillies, what do you think they could be?

Best wishes and thanks again,

Michael

Michael Busch 10 Dec 2008

Hi,

it was me who opened this thread.

Michael

Stan Willis 10 Dec 2008

Both styles are Lilly Irons. The small one seems smaller than the others I've seen, but it's hard to tell from the picture. It is missing the lead plug.
You can see them both on my CD.
Stan

Steve Santini 10 Dec 2008

Hi Michael,

The lead plugs are not in fact "plugs" per say but are instead part of the entire pouring of the lead which makes up the threads in the lock tube.

It was done after the rest of the restraint was hand forged (probably the last step as the lead was poured around the bolt which was already in the top shroud of the upper lock tube and when the irons were closed).

The bolt made the threads in the lead and was able to be unscrewed once the lead had cooled owing to it having a coating of grease prior to the pouring of the lead.

The lead itself was poured through this hole in the bottom of the lock tube. The area you named as the "plug."

At least one book on handcuffs says that lead was used to make these threads so that a prisoner wearing the irons could not rap them on a hard surface and get the bolt to unscrew due to vibration.

I do not completely agree with this theroy as I believe lead was used to ensure that the bolt would not rust fast to metal threads and render the restraint inoperative.

When one remembers that many Lilly restraints were used by the U.S. Navy and as such they would have been subjected to salt air corrosion, it makes perfect sense that you would make the recieving threads out of a different metal than the locking bolt and one that would not rust.

Cheers, Steve Santini

Anonymous 10 Dec 2008

Hi Michael,

I'm wondering if they aren't a long distance tranport cuff. Obviously the Lilly bar cuff is not going to work well for a prisoner who sits in them for days or weeks waiting to get back to port.

Any chance they are wrist size?

Brad

Michael Busch 10 Dec 2008

Hi again,

and thank you very much for your answers!

Stan, I have your CD where I work, will look it up tomorrow. Would you say that the smaller versions are the older ones? The larger irons I have are very symmetrical, they look much more machine-made than the smaller ones.

Thank you very much, Steve, for the information about how the threads were made, I never heard about this before! I always used to think that the lead was added to the bottom of the holes to prevent the irons from being opened by banging them on a hard surface in order to loosen the screw (although I never came to an idea how the lead could have prevented this physically).

And no, Brad, these are definetely leg-irons (although these really would have made my day if they had turned out to be handcuffs!). Would have made a nice display with my Kimball leg-irons and the Adams collar and cuffs I found recently on ebay.

Best wishes,

Michael

Stan Willis 10 Dec 2008

I don't know about the age difference of the 2 types of leg irons. Could just be different makers. I know that you Germans have a didfferent sense of humor than we do in the US, but we don't joke about things like "Kimball leg-irons and the Adams collar and cuffs I found recently on ebay."
Stan

Michael Busch 10 Dec 2008

You are sure I am joking, right? Anyway, will have to get back down in the cellar and finish polishing up my Palmer #10 thumbcuffs.
Michael

Stan Willis 10 Dec 2008

If you look on my CD you will see a Palmer Neck Collar. No Joke.
I don't know if it was factory made as a Neck Collar, or if it was modified, but it is old.
Stan

Steve Santini 11 Dec 2008

#10

Your C.D. Stan but the collar you mention likely came from me.

If it is bare metal that is and not rusty or black.

I had it once and sold it.

Steve

Anonymous 11 Dec 2008

#11

Hi Steve:
I did'nt get it from you, but here is the pic. It is not as shiney as in the picture. Do you know anything about it ?
Thanks.
Stan

Steve Santini 11 Dec 2008

#12

Stan,

This is the one I originally had.

It came to me originally linked to Palmer hand irons with connecting chain.

I sold the hand irons seperately if memory serves me.

A number of years back I did not have a seller's account on Ebay and had a sales agent sell things for me.

This was one of them.

I am certain it was not factory made.

The chains linking the entire combo were not original Palmer chains.

Someone cobbled together the neck collar from a leg iron and they added the back strap.

And for a small neck too.

Steve

Nils 23 Dec 2008

#13

I remember seeing (and bidding on these) on ebay France. The seller ended them prematureley.

Guess all's fair in love and on ebay : P

Have fun with 'em.

Michael Busch 23 Dec 2008

#14

You refer to the Lilly irons? These were offered on ebay.com, here is the auction number: 190267497279.

Must have been something else you saw on ebay France.

Best,

Michael

LK 24 Dec 2008

#15

POSSIALBLE CINARIAL :

1. WERE MADE FOR LADY'S, WELL WOMEN,LADY'S DON'T WEAR LEG IRON'S
(MY BAD ---TODAY SOME DO)

2. THAY WERE MADE FOR THE WOMAN HUNG AS LINCON'S ASSINATION ASSISTANT

3. LEAD WAS EXTRACTED DURING CIVIL WAR TO MAKE A BULLET

LK

Nils 24 Dec 2008

#16

Michael,
my mistake.