Vince
#1The Forum at Handcuffs.Org
FWD: For sale in NYC: Torture devices from 16th century
42 visible archived posts · 42 preserved total · topic ID 3029
Kevin Connolly
#2I tried to get the site, but it hasn't loaded yet.
Steve Santini
#3Something is fishy regarding this planned sale.
Actually, a number of things.
The bulk of this collection, originally housed at the Royal Castle in Nuremburg was said to have been purchased by an Englishman and sent to N.Y. on tour in the 1800's.
This may be so but I doubt it was purchased from the Germans becuase I have photographic evidence in my collection that shows the collection was back on public display in Nuremburg in the 1920's, 30's and 40's when eventually it was damaged in the allied bombing raids of WW2.
So how this collection, or parts of it ended up being owned by an Englishman and then went to the USA in the late 1800's and then ended up staying there hidden away in the hands of some unseen family for all this time does not seem right at all.
Especially when I know it went back to Germany and I have personally seen a number of it's pieces in German museums, including the original Nuremburg Iron Maiden.
This press release also makes mention the collection was exhibited in Chicago but I know of no evidence for this. There was once a torture exhibit at the Chicago Fair but it did not consist of real devices and was instead a wax museum type collection featuring mechanical human figures as the victims of the prop devices.
I have been researching torture instruments for many years and myself own an ever growing collection of authentic instruments. I am also in regular contact with other collectors of such things worldwide and they themselves have expressed doubts about this collection and it's origin.
Currently I am waiting to see pictures of any of the devices on offer and once I see them I will be able to confirm if this collection is indeed part of the lost Nuremburg torture collection.
However, given the "facts" as reported in this press release I seriously have doubts.
Steve Santini
Chris Gower
#4I do have quite a lot of paper work regarding the collection of torture instruments 'from the Castle of Nuremberg'. However, I am certain that Steve knows a lot more about their history than me.
All I know is that I have an 1893 catalogue of 'The Torture Instruments' that were said to have come from Nuremburg and that were purchased by the Earl of Shrewsbury in 1890 and it was his collection that was 'exhibited in Great Britain and throughout the United States'.
In 1967 the collection did come up for auction with Peter Dale Auctioneers based in South London. I will have to send Joe the scans that I have just done as I do not seem to be able to attach them to photobucket - come back Dan!!! The article appeared in Men Only in October 1967 - how times have changed when we look back at 'Top Shelf' magazines of those times but as school boys they were fun!!
Anyway I digress, I did contact Peter Dale in about 1980 but he had no record of the auction or prices that they fetched. I did locate 3 pages from the original sale with sketches of about 50 items and one page listing 47 items. In about 1980 I also wrote to the current Earl of Shrewsbury and enquired whether he had any more information on I assumed his grand fathers collection. He did write back -again will try and find his letter but basically he had NO knowledge of it so I felt quite pleased that at least he replied rather than just file my letter.
I do know that a collector called Michael Forman bought several items from the auction and he had some very nice handcuffs etc. with the theme 'Mans Inhumanity to Man' His collection was auctionned off about 14 years ago and I was away at the time and did not find out about it until it was over.
Let me know if you want to see the 'Centre-fold' picture of Miss Paola Rossi posing with a large red cushion!
Chris Gower
lauher
#5Chris sent the following pictures.
Unknown / guest
#6Joe Tanner sent the following photos:
Joseph Fox
#7Well, that "Men Only" cover girl..certainly brightened my day!
Steve Santini
#8Are of a novelty paperweight that was sold in Nuremburg as a sovenir of the Iron Maiden.
They were made by the thousands and frequently show up on ebay for $30.00 and up.
There were also sovenir spoons made with a mini Maiden at the top of the handle.
Gotta love those Germans!
Steve Santini
Steve Santini
#9In the mag pic, possibly the only authentic Maiden in all of Europe, was damaged in the bombing raids of WW2 and is currently on display at the Kriminal Justice Museum in Rothenberg Ob Der Tauber.
Steve Santini
Steve Santini
#10Many of the other devices pictured in the mag spread are currently on display in various German museums and private collections.
I have seen them personally.
So, we must assume the collection was sold bit by bit over the decades.
I am now more certain than ever this is NOT the collection being offered in N.Y.
Red flags abound.
Steve Santini
joe tanner
#11yes, what horse crap !!! the item i have IS a miniature replacia of the iron maiden that my father in law purchased in 1956... maybe many were made & sold, but i doubt that they sell on EBAY for $30... what bull crap !!! how many exist today ?? not many.... i personally do not think that there are many ( if any ) true ancient torture devises etc etc that exist today... MOST of the stuff (including santini's) have all been made since the year of 1850 (guess).... most ORIGINALS would have been MELTED down & the metal used to make swords, knives-axes, & other uses etc etc for all of the WARS that have been fought since mid evil times... as i have said before, these musuems CLAIM to have authentic items just as the dozens who CLAIM to have Jesse James gun etc etc.... so yes, buyer beware or does someone not want you to bid against them -- lol.... joe
Steve Santini
#12Thousands of these were made in pewter with iron nials put into the cast.
Yes, $30.00 and up on ebay.
A common item produced in great quantity.
Search Iron Maiden on ebay.
Steve Santini
Steve Santini
#13Tanner, give it up.
I have some of the top European museums that deal in AUTHENTIC torture devices behind me and my collection, expertise, etc.
Unlike some "dealers" who do not stand behind what they sell, etc.
We all know who those are.
Steve Santini
joe tanner
#14i was never in a league & you sure could NOT be with your pitful little collection... by the way - NOW as always you change your story -- PEWTER you say !! maybe that is so but you know full well that mine is not PEWTER..... you always THINK (in your mind) & MOUTH that you are better then anyone else... to bad - it is only in your pea brain MIND ... grow up & let others voice THEIR opinions WITHOUT always trying to get 1 up on them... you are really a SAD SAD case.... always needing attention & for someone to stroke your pea brain EGO... i really hiope that someday - you do grow up.... joe
Jack.Tanis
#15Hello,
For what it is or isn't worth, the National Archives, centred just outside of London in Richmond, has these documents in its Warwickshire catalogue.
Catalogue of Collection of Torture Instruments from the Royal Castle of Nuremburg lent for exhibition by the Earl of Shrewsbury. J. D. Ichenhauser. CR1886/Box734/23 1893
Photocopy and translation of Declaration, Nurnberg, by G. F. Gender, Antique Dealer, that on 15 Oct 1889 he sold to Mr J. Ichenhauser the world famous collection of torture instruments for many years exhibited in the Royal Castle of Nurnberg, and that Ichenhauser removed them from the Castle in May 1890. CR1886/Box734/24 1892 8 April
Photocopy and translation of signature confirmation of G. F. Gender, who appeared before Joseph Hohl, Royal Notary at Nurnberg. G.R.V.No.665. Notarial Stamp. CR1886/Box734/25 1892 8 April
Photocopy of Certificate of William J. Black, Consul of the United States of America at Nuremberg, that Joseph Hohl was at the time of signing Royal Bavarian Notary at Nuremberg, Bavaria. Fee No.249. Consular Seal. CR1886/Box734/26 1892 9 April
London. Photocopy of Certificate of J. Ichenhauser that this original collection of instruments of torture... has been sold by me to Mr Henry Walters of Baltimore. From May 1890 until the above date the collection has been in the possession of the Earl of Shrewsbury and Talbot. CR1886/Box734/27 1905 9 Feb
Cheers,
Jack
http://www.editing.org.uk/tanis/collectibles.htm
Atlanta*Casting
#16According to the AP news story;
New York's Guernsey's auction house plans to auction the privately owned collection,
This is the website.
http://www.guernseys.com/
I went to the auction website but didn't see anything about this auction.
Atlanta*Casting
#17From the website, listaholic.com
http://www.listaholic.com/12-of-the-mos ... story.html
personally, I would prefer a room with the scary caterpillar..
joe tanner
#18ATLANTA CASTING
thanks for posting the web site..... below is listed what THOMAS said... this is the 1ST post under all the so called TORTURE items that are listed................
Thomas, Said:
According to Wikipedia, the Iron maiden is actually a hoax.
Historians have ascertained that Johann Philipp Siebenkees created the history of it as a hoax in 1793. [..] The Nuremberg iron maiden was actually built in the 19th century [..]
need i say more... no, but i will.... i have not checked out Wikipedia myself, but i kinda already knew it..... if you check the site out, you will even see an artists rendition of what HE calls the REVOLVING DRUM ... this is how FANTASY becomes a LIE & carried on by IDIOTS..... joe
Edgeplay_Cgo
#19It appears from the documentation, that the Earl of Shrewsbury did purchase the Iron Maiden from Nurnberg in the 1890s. Yet we know it was back there during WW-II when it was damaged, and that she resides in Germany today. Do we have any idea how or when it was transferred back? Could there have been more than one?
bob
#20could the mini iron maidens be salesmens samples?, some one like otto von screamer might have pedaled around germany way back when......there was a guy on e-bay, retard_again, or something selling very unusual 'salesmens samples' not so long ago, perhaps this person might know?....just my 2 cents worth......
newfieboy
#21Well i hope this was a typing error as i dont think joe wants to be refered to as retard_again it would be retired_again. Hes been around for along time like alot of us and knows his stuff.
Yeah
#22Tanner knows shit
Vince
#23As obvious as it is how history gets lost over time during just a few decades, there could NEVER be a chain of custody for items from 400+ years ago.
Wether or not a specific item was used for "torture" or "restraint" becomes irrelevent when someone wants to give an item some historical signifigance where none exists. ((I have a box of "Alcatraz Slave Manacles" with brass ownership plates riveted on, with prices starting at $1.99 ea / if anyone's interested))
Instead of dwelling on what someone is ignorant of, let's keep things positive & try to solve one more of these "history's mysteries" for the benifit of all.
Myself, I find it fishy how an "untouched" collection goes from 1,300+ pieces to less that 250... GO FIGURE!
--Vince
Anonymous
#24Edgeplay_Cgo
#25could the mini iron maidens be salesmens samples?
I highly doubt it. The Iron Maiden was probably custom made for a unique client. I doubt there were ever three of them made in all history, tourist knockoffs excepted.
I don't know, Steve probably would, if there is any reliable documentation of The Iron Maiden actually being used. It's just as likely that the original owner used it as a prop to terrorize people.
One problem with torture implements is that it doesn't take much to torture. A hot knife in the armpit will make you sing like a canary. Beating the snot out of someone is probably the most common technique. Most of the "implements" were thrown out when they were not considered useful, or thrown into a corner to rot and rust away, or the iron recycled by the blacksmith.
Wooden items can be radiocarbon dated, but iron is tricky. An expert can make some shrewd guesses from the style of workmanship, but that's about it. Blacksmith work is all one-offs, and one smith's work will differ from his own from different days of the week.
Provenance can be extremely difficult to prove. There's a lot of trust worked into the equations.
Dorson
#26I wondered what happened to the Iron Maiden that one of Saddam's sons had and what other implements they had also found at that place. Is it me or has anyone else noticed that fraud is on the rise. I remember about a month ago about a collection in UK with torture stuff that turned out to be a bunch of reproductions.
Jack.Tanis
#27Steve Santini
#28Since we were talking about the Maiden which puts holes in people, for interest's sake I thought I would post some pics of a very rare 16th century torture instrument I just added to my collection. These iron shoes were found in Stutgart Germany and the persons feet would be tied into them with leather thongs at the ankles. The person would then have the hands bound over thier head and they would have to balance on tip toe. If they sagged the spikes would go into the soles of the feet. To date there is only one other known pair of these and they are housed in a museum in Munich.
Steve Santini
Anonymous
#29so is this now a BDSM forum?
Steve Santini
#30It is an educational forum.
Sorry if that concept is beyond you.
Steve Santini
bob
#31until "tortureequipment.org" comes along, this is the site to show these things off, IMHO.....steve has a great collection of interesting items, and anything that fires the imagination is welcomed by me. sorry about the pun nefieboy, couldn't resist......bob.
bob...
#32newfieboy, that should say!
newfieboy
#33Its ok bob..lol..You know this form as been around for a long time thanks to joseph.Everyone here knows alot of things about restraints..I really hate it when people bash people.I get along with everyone and i dont come here to vent,I come here to listen to all the collectors about things i dont know.(and i have been collecting for over 25 years) I dont know everything.I think its ashame that others feel the need to make others look bad,feel stupid just because they think there better.We all collect an item that not to many people would look twice at ...so can we all get along...Steve nice pair of torture shoes.I sure wouldent want to go for a jog in those...lol..
Unknown / guest
#34Now i see what you did ..lol...newfie running shoes...i like it!
Steve Santini
#35Nice to hear some find my postings of interest.
It is always cool to know what is out there in restraints and related devices.
For Newfieboy: Where about on The Rock are you located?
Many years back when I toured Atlantic Canada with my stage hypnosis show I did a lot of gigs in Cornerbrook, Stephensville, St. Johns, and Gander.
I loved performing there but I always left with a hangover that lasted for WEEKS!
The good folks there just won't let a guy say "No, I've got to get some sleep."
Cheers, Steve
newfieboy
#36Hi steve well i have a cool little house right on the ocean....i live in a comunity of 122 people,I am in the worst province in canada right now but i will be home this summer.My house is in comfort cove north of lewisporte and an hour and a half from gander!
Steve Santini
#37There for sure.
My Grandfather on my father's side was born in Burin.
I probably spelt that wrong.
I love The Rock but it must be tough to live there these days.
Steve
newfieboy
#38Yes bruin is near marystown i know where its to.Steve send me an email and we can talk there.
Anon456
#39So what's wrong with BDSM??? I suspect those inquisitors and there helpers got there jollies off on torturing people. The power they had over people and there pleadings and so on. They predate any of the modern terms but I think they were getting some personal satisfaction in a sexual way. And who would know under all the clothes they wore at the time.
bob
#40why would anyone confuse real torture with BDSM anyway?. most folks i know that 'play' those games do it willingly and get a huge amount of pleasure from it...shock, horror.....myself included!. real torture has at least one unwilling participant. how we get into this collecting thing is anyones guess, but i suspect there is more than just the technical angle. i like to collect and play with my handcuffs, mostly giving but a little recieving can be nice too. i know i'm not alone on this one.......bob.
MLee
#41Toured Atlantic Canada ?????
J. Tanner is correct a Con man is always a con man !
Steve Santini
#42The booking agency in Halifax that managed me and booked me across the Maritimes for over 4 years that it was not really me.
If they found out I may have to pay commission fees to my stunt double. LOL.
Seriously, if anyone feels like taking the time to create a website to host the news clippings that I garnered from my gigs in PEI, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Newfoundland I will be only too happy to scan and send the articles.
Until that time comes, and I doubt it will, I will keep doing what I do and offer any info I can here regarding restraints and related devices.
After all, that is what this site was created for.
Steve Santini