Odd H&R Legirons (?)

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Here are Brad's pictures. Very interesting. I had no idea that there were
two sizes.
Joe

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Click to expand...

Hi again all,

Thought I'd add some more info and measurements on these in the hopes that some of you might check yours and compare.

I got them along with a standard pair of Super handcuffs that had been cut away to show the lock works, I guess for some sort of training purpose; building, picking, repairing, I don't know. They are interesting to look at, though. The cuffs just had a paper hanging tag on them with, written in pencil, "Return to George Stanhope". I checked on George since the name sounded familiar on the web. He was the sixth Earl of Winchester and died in 1863. So he was a too-old-Brit, to have anything to do with these.

There is a George Stanhope University here in the States in the Midwest, but it looks to be a mostly liberal arts school, not a technical type place. Is that a clue to anyone?

All material mesurements mic out on these same as the regular set. Both have chains with 15 links and are 11 7/8" long and mic out the same.

In other words, I'm convinced these are H&R and not a knock off.

Here are some measurements: bottom of hinge to top of key hole; large set 6 1/8", small set 5 5/8". Across the cuff with the bail on first notch; large 5 3/8", small 5". With bail on last notch; large 4 1/4", small 3 11/16".

I overestimated the size difference in my first mail. I did some calcs and the small set is just about 10% smaller than the standard set.

Any info would be much appreciated. Thanks,
Brad

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Click to expand...

Hi. Brad, you raised a good question and your past post slipped my mind. Thanks for bringing the subject up again.
The Leg Irons that I am offering appear to be in between sizes from the two you show.
First of all, mine has 14 links. There has NOT been any cuts or repairs of any kind. The irons left the factory with only 14 links many years ago.
These are bonafide H and R brand factory-made leg irons and each cuff features a very prominent and clear marking that indicates its manufacture by the company and its place of origin in Worcester, Mass.
It seems to measure only 5 1/2 from the inside edge of the lock body, just below the hinge pin to the furthest edge of the ball where the key is inserted.

I know that there is 2 variations of chains that were used. Both of these are featured in the CD of the Stan Willis collection.

I am mystified as to why there are these variations in size. It seems that it would have cost a fortune to retool and made new dies. Perhaps they needed to change dimensions to meet some sort of government requirements or specifications.

p.s. Brad, I will still send you the pics from the other cuffs we talked about. Got a bit too busy getting ready for the Lock Show that I attended. It was good and I got lots of great cuffs there!

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Click to expand...

Hi again.
I went back to see how many links were on the pair the Joe L. has pictured on his pair in the leg irons section. His has 14 links as does mine.
Anybody have a different amount of links or cuff bodies with different dimensions? m

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Click to expand...

This is a very strange. Why the differences on something that evidently never sold in great quantity?

Joe

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Click to expand...

Hi Mark and Joe,

Thanks for the info. I went up and measured both pairs the way you measured yours. The big set came in at 5 7/16" and the small set at 5 1/16". So I'm guessing that the big set is the same as yours on eBay (5 1/2").

EXCEPT, I recounted the links on both sets several times and, by golly, they still have 15 links each (whew!) of the same chain, the same length.

Maybe they were running short of chain the day yours and Joe's were being made. Or they could have been using the "tip of the nose to the extended thumb" measurement technique and my guy was taller than yours.

You're right, Joe, this is confusing. Maybe that's why they weren't a big seller.

At least I know which one is standard now (sort of). Thanks.

I'll watch for the pics, Mark. Thanks.

Brad

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Click to expand...

I have 2 H&R Super LI. Chains are different. Dimension of the shackle part is almot identical. 6 1/8 inches from outside edge at hinge pin to end of lock barrel. Both have groove in bow. The one with H&R markings, but no patent date has the 15 link chain that measures 12 inches. The other Li has the H& R markings and the patent number, so it is a later pair. The chain is heavier and is 16 links and measures 13 5/8 inches.
Stan

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Click to expand...

Stan, thanks for the info on your LI's. It confirms what I suspected, that my large set is standard and the small one is the oddball.

After repeatedly mic'ing everything, I just couldn't see how the small set could not be H&Rs, but with no markings, I couldn't be sure. Knowing you have an early set, with groove, but no markings, resolves that issue.

The small set, except for the standard (haha) length chain is in between a legiron and a handcuff, size-wise.

Thanks again.
Brad

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Click to expand...

Hi Brad:
Read my previous responce again. BOTH the Legirons have the H&R markings. One has no patent number and one does. I've never seen an H&R Super LI without groove in the bow.
Stan

Hi All,

Since I didn't know about the Radner auction this past weekend, I went to the gun show instead, in Las Vegas.

There I picked up this pair of H&R legirons. Now, I'm unsure of what they are although I'm inclined to think H&R.

They are not marked H&R nor "made in USA". They are about 20% smaller than my other pair (see photos). However, I mic'd evrything and all the material thicknesses except the bail are the same. Chain is identical to the H&R's. Finish is indistinguishable from H&R.

Anyone have any ideas on these? Did H&R make any unmarked items or more than one size of leg irons?

Can't figure out how to post pictures right now. Will contact Joe to find out how and put them up shortly.

Thanks,
Brad

Click to expand...

This will confuse things even more. there are 13 links on the chain on the H&R LI in the texas Ranger Hall of Fame Museum. Looks like the bigger links.
Stan