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Houdini Handcuffs

22 visible archived posts · 22 preserved total · topic ID 3332

Joshua 06 Jan 2010

Howdy All!

I see that on ebay there are a pair of in theory Houdini Handcuffs for sale on Ebay. I can imagine that someone on here know who's selling these and if so....are they legit? Second....although I know the value may be in the eyes of the beholder....what are some opinions of value on these since the starting bid and I'm guessing ending bid is and will be $7,000. All opinions and suggestions would be appreciated.

John Bushey 07 Jan 2010

Many recent auctions have sold "authentic Houdini" restraints; ie) handcuffs
and leg irons. The Sid Radner auction in Vegas, The Butterfield sale in
LA, 1999. & Private auctions involving restraints from the Houdini Home
acquired from the 1981 sale of contents of his home. Prices have ranged
from about $1400-$18,000. Most of the handcuffs/leg irons with good
providance sold for in the $2500-$4500 range. Keep in mind a few things;
What is the providance??? Most "Houdini" handcuffs have poor providance
and cannot be counted on as being Houdini's. When I say most, I do mean
most! I personally feel $7000 is much too high for a Houdini cuff
as common as a Tower. The two MacKenzie Mitts (one black and one Plated)
sold in Vegas from the Radner collection sold for, if memory serves,
$7000 and $8000. Much better buy. On the other hand, several collectors
I attended the auction with paid from $1500-$3000 for rarer cuffs such
as a Phelps, Lilly Iron, Palmer, etc... I bought a Houdini "king-breaker"
Lilly Iron, with altered locking mechanism and unique machined custom key for only $1900. It sat in Appleton for several years before being sold
by Sid in Vegas. So, unless they have good providance, and are a cuff
of some rarity, I wouldn't even consider buying a "Houdini Handcuff".
Most of us know that even Sid's material may not have been Houdini's.
Some was Houdini's, some Hardeen's, and I'd guess some Sid's. Items were pulled from the auction with COA as belonging to Houdini but after bringing the auctioneers attention to a patent date well after Houdini passed away,
well, that about says it all. To me it casts doubt on much of the material
being sold. Anyway, this is my opinion.
Best, John

Joshua 07 Jan 2010

Thanks much John! I'm extremley new to the addiction of old restraints and I'm in the market to add something rare to my collection. I have a pair of Mckenzie Mitts and Im trying to match it's rarity and have SOOOOO much to learn. So I figured I better get the Houdini questions out of the way. Thanks for the response!!

Dorson 07 Jan 2010

Joshua,
John is absolutely correct in what he says, and the old caveat emptor is so relavent. There are some people who don't know what they are selling and mistakenly are making claims without real foundation. Then there are those who intentionally make false, untrue claims on the items they are selling. Those are the people I don't care for, and I am being polite about it. And don't count on ebay to help reasonably deal with a seller, they much rather you go away. Over the years they have made it harder to report such cases and this is by no accident.

-Dorson

Joshua 07 Jan 2010

Thanks Dorson,

I have spent a ridiculous amount of hours these last few weeks reading and researching different kinds of handcuffs and restraints and reading all I can on how to spot fakes. However when allocating a proper value on something like handcuffs that "belonged" to Houdini I was at a cross roads. See I inherited the Mckenzie Mitts by fluke chance and thanks to Mark Lyons episode on Pawn Stars and helpful info from Mr. Willis I have become addicted to this new hobby. I find it hard to find places such as auctions and such that sell or auction handcuffs though....of course I imagine that is what keeps me addicted. If anyone has any suggestions on where and how to look for those prize possesion IM ALL EARS. Any tips and tricks of the trade are much appreciated. For now I will thank you both very much for saving my ass from getting a butt chewing from the wife for considering spending 7K on handcuffs LOL

Much Thanks,
Joshua

John Bushey 07 Jan 2010

Hi Joshua,
When it comes to Houdini, there are a few collectors you can ask and get a good answer. Joe Fox, Fred Pitella, or myself are three that
come to mind. Joe is just a very knowledgeable guy, and Fred and myself collect Houdini and have for years! Not to take ANYTHING away from
the many others who post here, because many of them are experts in their own areas. Most focus on handcuffs, and do not really
collect Houdini. Another Houdini expert, and one of the best, who does NOT collect handcuffs but does post here is Kevin Connolly. My main collection is Houdini, and handcuffs are secondary. I only have about 175 restraints in the collection, but much more Houdini. Of course, I do have a few nicer pieces including a pair of MacKenzie mitts, a Wisner Hoyt Handcuff, Phelps Handcuff, 3 Palmers, 2 Bean Giants, four Romers, rankins, most of the Towers, Beans, Maltbys, bottlenecks, etc... I mainly focus on Houdini era handcuffs to display with my Houdini collection, although I do have lots of modern swing-through items as well. Anyway, good luck with the collecting, and if you ever need Houdini info please feel free to ask. Always happy to at least give an opinion.

As for the Tower handcuffs on EBay??? The Nugent/Wresch collection is pretty well documented. I have photos of the collection in a book entitled the Great Houdini handcuffs and Leg Irons by Dick Wresch. The problem I see with the auction, and maybe it's wording
by seller, is that you "receive COA signed" Signed by who I ask??? And, "Copies" of the original bill of sale, and letters from Nugent and Hardeen.
Well, if you sell the cuffs, why not originals of these items?? You could make copies all day long and sell them with different cuffs.
Also, Hardeen is KNOWN to have run down to the local junk shops, buy handcuffs, and sell them as his brothers. So what was Houdini's, what was
Hardeen's, and how do we prove it. My opinion; We can't. Unless, it's a rare or unusual item pictured in a photo of Houdini. Items like the Houdini Guiteau handcuff, or other rare items like Berliners, or pictured in his book Handcuff Secrets, or of course the unique Houdini cuffs
such as the London Mirror cuff, Russian Manacle, Seance cuff, Bell-lock Handcuff, or French Lettercuffs.
John

Kevin Connolly 08 Jan 2010

HEY! I have one set cuffs! Really! And a couple of pieces of HH stuff.

Listen to John if you want to know about cuffs. He might even have some for sale.

Good Luck,

Kevin

Steve Santini 08 Jan 2010

Rare restraints like the Guiteau handcuff, or other rare items like Berliners H.H. is pictured wearing or that are seen on his lobby boards were ever his.

There were a few of the Guiteau cuffs made, and many Berliners. We have, over the past several years, seen auctions of Berliners of the exact same shape and type worn by Houdini. i.e. round top, box top, castle top, etc.

The mere fact that such cuffs exist in numbers clearly shows us that the models Houdini is shown with are in no way singular.

Outside of The Mirror, The Seance Cuff, The Bell Lock cuff, the French Letter cuffs, there is NO provable way we can be certain any particular cuff was either seen or used by Houdini.

Case in point... I personally own a few Siberian Cell padlocks and leg chains as well as lock picking tools that formerly were owned and used by Houdini and given to Dunninger after his death by Bess.

I have a perfect chain of custody including who owned them after Dunninger, etc.

But will tis sell them? Probably not.

Why?

Because there have been other similiar examples of the same padlocks offered in auctions. i.e. The same style was make and just like the Berliners and the Guiteau, there are more than one extant.

Sid Radner sat on a gold mine because he has a few undisputable objects that were clearly owned and used by Houdini and as I have seen so very often in the auction world, owning a few "star" items is often enough in the minds of hopefull buyers to give the rest of the objects, dubious or otherwise, all the "provenance" needed to convince people they too are authentic.

The public, as usual, follows a big "name" and overlooks logic and common sense in the process.

Steve Santini

John Bushey 08 Jan 2010

Steve,
I do agree that any cuff in production cannot definitively be proven to be Houdini's, although a Berliner or Guiteau, which Houdini is known
to have owned, and are pictured in either his books or in his photos, that come from a source such as Sid or a "big name", are far better than
a common handcuff such as a Bean Cobb or Tower from the same source. Hardeen, or Sid, or anyone could run out anywhere and pick those up easily. Not so with a Berliner or Guiteau. 5 Guiteau handcuffs are known. One in california, one in England, one in the Copperfield Collection, one in NY, and one in the midwest. Quite a few Berliners are out there, but FAR less than the number of other more common American handcuffs. It's nearly impossible to attribute those to Harry. As a matter of fact, relatively few photos of Houdini show him with Tower handcuffs. And, as for
the Wresch collection, I know of one handcuff owned now in a private collection that is positively identified by markings on the cuff and
they are identical to markings on the cuff pictured in the Wresch book. At the very least, they were Hardeen's. I do agree that provenance
to Houdini is very difficult at best.

joe tanner 08 Jan 2010

#10

i know that i should not post anything to this thread as i am sure that i will be blasted.... SANTINI is right & the item that he speaks about that he owns. may have come from the same person (RICHARD) that i purchased the DUN-HOUD items from..........
JOHN is correct in part..... example, if there are 5 Guiteau cuffs known & 2 people CLAIM to have the HOUDINI owned one & both go to sell them -- who do you believe ??? as many of you know, i purchased a number of restraints, padlocks etc etc that had PROPORTEDLY belonged to HOUDINI ... these items came to me THRU the DUNNINGER owned items......i was given ONLY TWO group item COA's - signed by MRS. DUNNINGER......so of course, when i put out the HOUDINI - DUNNINGER catalog of items FOR SALE - i had NO choice but to provide EACH buyer with a COPY of the letters........I purchased the HOU - DUN items thru a THIRD person.......when i put out the HOU - DUN catalog, i was STILL buying items from RICHARD & these items never made it into the catalog........ i can tell you without a DOUBT that the items that i received from RICHARD DID indeed come from the HOU-DUN collection as the FBI contacted me about the items as DUN daughter claimed that the items were stolen...... we disproved that quickly !!!!!! as the FBI took the letters & did a handwriting comparison & then quickly returned the letters to me ..... of course no apology !!!
you also know that i purchased the WRESCH owned - HOUDINI collection of restraints, locks & keys........same thing, i only received ONE group letter of purchase ..... there were SEVERAL individual letters of proof for individual items signed by HARDEEN......... i have CERTIFIED COPIES of them that i had made just for my own enjoyment as those items were sold to MR. RADNER & MR MUELLER.........these same items were sold in the RADNER auction, but these items WERE NOT mentioned as coming from the WRESCH collection - WHY ??? .... In the W - H collection of the approx. 100 items, there were several restraints that were marked with a serial number so to speak that either matched the letter pertaining to said item or that you could see in the book that WRESCH did on the restraints........ there were also restraints that were NOT pictured in the book...... so that takes us back to this thread......depending on what is what ------ YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DON'T !!!! -- SIMPLE AS THAT ..... if NOT - then don't buy.......... .
many of you know that i also have HOUDINI restraints that my father in law acquired in the early 1960's from POP RENO .... i have letters from RENO to dad stating that he received - bought the items from HOUDINI etc etc ...... now back in the 1960's NO BODY cared to much about HOUDINI etc etc - so why would RENO lie ??? so again -- YOU EITHER BELIEVE the info or YOU DON'T !!!! simple as that...... anyone wanting to buy a HOUDINI restraint or lock, let me know....... now lets sit back & see the FLAKE roll on in...... joe

Joshua 08 Jan 2010

#11

WOW I originally thought that my thread would get skipped but as it appears there are alot of strong opinions on the matter. I apologize if I have stirred sht up that was not my intentions. I'm looking to start my collection with best of what I can find and will enjoy the hunt in the meantime. Having a Houdini restraint would be fantastic!.. after I spend even more time researching. I do greatly appreciate the words of advice and I at least have come to the conclusion that spending $7,000 on the item posted on e-bay is too much for such item....it would a apear that in time I may get the opportunity to purchase a more rare restraint belonging to him for less or the same. Thanks again all and I would still greatly appreciate any advice or guidance on where to start looking.

Happy Hunting,
Joshua

Gordon 09 Jan 2010

#12

IMHO Houdini did acquire a lot of common type handcuffs. I would say that most would come from winning them in his handcuff challenge.Maybe he would say would say "If I get out can I keep them ?" or if he did get out the challenger would say " Good job, keep them". The super cuffs and rare cuffs would be on display boards and used for posters.
The best letter of authenticity I ever saw was by Hardeen and he told how
he obtained a Towers handcuff.It was probably a lot of BS, but still a fun read.
The Wresch collection was for many years mounted on white display boards. When it came time to remove them some white paint stuck to some of the cuffs.
There is a person who has some very nice displays of antique magic,handcuffs and books in his magic shops. I noticed some of the handcuffs had fresh white paint on them. Any guess as to why there would be paint on them?

Gordon

Anonymous 09 Jan 2010

#13

wow

so i come up with a piece of paper that says I bought a set of cuffs from someone who bought them from someone else who claims they for sure and for certain bought them from a guy who bought them from the widow of a guy who swears he got them from the brother of a guy who claimed Houdini once held them in his hands

golly!!! with a provenance (providence?) like that, it must be true

i have a photocopy of the duplicate of the original coa and can prove it

Steve Santini 09 Jan 2010

#14

It's "provenance."

Meaning a chain of custody, previous ownership, a trail that can be traced.

Unlike the countless and worthless no names who come on this forum just to stir shit.

joe tanner 09 Jan 2010

#15

to all -- GORDON is completely correct in stating that the restraints had been on the white boards for many many years..... in fact, when i purchased the collection we had to kinds pry the items off the boards.... wasn't hard thou..... once we had all the restraints off the bords & if you stood just several feet away - you would swear the the cuffs were still on the boards...... that is how good the impressions were...... i only have one regret from buying the collection..... dang it -- i should have taken the boards TOO !!!! joe

Patrick Culliton 12 Jan 2010

#16

I place considerable stock in the cuffs that had a specific accompanying letter in which Hardeen described or discussed cuffs that had been Houdini's and/or his.
In the letters to Nugent, Hardeen identifies (to the best of his ability) each cuff or lock and usually tells a story about it. (This Nugent is not the same one whose name appears several times in Houdini's Conjurers' Monthly).
When Nugent got interested in cuffs and locks, Houdini was already dead. He contacted Bessie, who told him she had kept only a few cuffs which were of great sentimental value to her. The rest, she told him, went to Hardeen. He then got in touch with Hardeen and their relationship began.
I have one cuff from the Nugent/Wresch/Tanner/Radner-Muller chain of custody. I avoided the "was it Houdini's" dilemma because Hardeen doesn't put it in Houdini's hands at all. The letter tells how he was challenged with this Hyatt plug 8 by Sgt. Jim Moffatt of the Bradford police. He says that later he and Houdini became close friends with Jim Moffatt.
That cuff and about 20 others were written about in "Hobbies--the Magazine for Collectors" in Feb. 1940. The article mentions a Berliner--"not another like it in the world" according to Hardeen. The letter says it was fastened on Houdini in Kolin, Germany and that Houdini's assistant "Frantz Kukol" managed to "ease" it out of the courtroom.
Franz Kukol didn't sneak that cuff out of the courtroom. He wasn't there. I don't find where Houdini was challenged in some independent way to escape from the Berliner during the court case. Houdini DID bring in a large satchel of cuffs chains and locks to demonstrate to the Cologne court the kinds of things he did.
Couple more things: Jim Moffatt's name was actually spelled "Morfitt" and he and Houdini didn't become close friends after the challenge to Hardeen, they became friends and worked together well before Hardeen first arrived in England. But the working relationship among Houdini, Hardeen, and Morfitt had to be kept secret. A lot of the letters have a bit of a cover like that.
The best Hardeen to Nugent letter I've seen says something like, (paraphrasing) "the cuff (lock) was rigged to break. . . I beat the cuff and you can still see the bloodstain where I hit the guy in the mouth with it."
An effect Sgt. Jim Morfitt contributed to Conjurers' Monthly won the best close-up trick competition.
The only truly certifiable Houdini handcuff I know of that is not currently at the S.A.M. Hall of Fame or held by tight fisted collectors who are not about to part with them is the Bell Lock Cuff--if it still exists.

Chufu 20 Jan 2010

#17

I probably should not enter into this either but at one time oringinal Houdini stuff was all over the place if you believe what people say. I have seen leters between Reno and HH about cuffs and a lot more between Hardeen and Reno as they bought and sold all the time. Reno loved Hardeen but not HH so much.
So I know Reno was in a position to have Houdini cuffs that he claimed. Now do I know enough about the situation to prove anything, no.
I know Gibson told me after Houdinis death Dunninger wnet to Bess and told her HH promised him some cuffs and walked off with a ton of stuff.
I love Dunninger but I can't believe all he says.
Dunninger apparently had beautiful paintings he bought and put his name on saying he painted them.
In the 70s and it is along story Dunninger came up with a sealed envelope for the HH museum claiming that it was a code message between him and Houdini.
If Dunninger really had this he would have not waited until the 70s to tell everyone. He was a publicity expert and would have used it years ago.
When I asked Gibson about it, he said, "Oh you know Joe, he just wrote out something and sealed it up for a promotion. Who can question Joe"? There is a lot more to the story but that was a scam for sure.
Again I love Joe but when dealing with magicians you have to remember their art is deception.
If I even considered buying a cuff said to belong to HH I would come here and get some thoughts on the matter. Norm

houdinisghost 20 Jan 2010

#18

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT
Who signed the certificate of authenticity for these cuffs? Anybody know?

Chufu 21 Jan 2010

#19

That is a lot of money. These may indeed be HH cuffs but here is my problem. The paper work could be real but how would anyone know if the cuffs were the same or just another pair?
According to Reno, Trudell, Doc Weiss and others all sorts of fake HH stuff was sold including milk cans and other props.
From all I have heard from these old guys I am quite a skeptic, but that is just my opinion.
I would much rather spend seven grand on a lot of cuffs that had nothing to do with HH and get something for my money.
I think one important thing would be if you bought them and wanted to sell them, could you?
Norm

houdinisghost 21 Jan 2010

#20

The "paperwork" is a couple of xeroxes of letters and a certificate of authenticity. Who, in this case, is the authenticator?
Given the Nugent/Wresch connection, perhaps these cuffs were in Joe Tanner's custody for a time.
Anything specific about these cuffs in the Wresch handbook?
Are the xeroxes of the letters from Hardeen to Nugent and Nugent to Wresch specific in mentioning this particular pair of cuffs?
I think the evidence that this pair of cuffs was Houdini's is extremely threadbare.
Most of the "Houdini handcuffs" out there are like this pair. Waiting for a true believer.

Chufu 21 Jan 2010

#21

These are all excellent points. To clarify my point, I am in no way saying the paper work is reliable. My point is even if the paper work is, how would we know the cuffs were Houdinis?
It is a single cuff and the original could have been lost or sold and or something else and this cuff could be a sustitute.
I am not suggesting that is the case, I just don't know how anyone could possibly know.
Becuase of what old escape artist said to me I don't trust a lot over this stuff. Some charge that an entire illusion show was sold as Houdini's by a very well know mentalist and there was not one prop that belonged to HH.
They also said back in the day when HH stuff was easy to get that some escape artist with a few HH cuffs would keep selling HH cuffs even after the escape artist sold all they had.
I bought some trays that made a die vanish and end up on the empty tray in full view. I have a letter somewhere from Reno that said this was Houdinis.
The problen is Reno got from a guy who got it from a guy and so on. At the time Reno was old and could not find his paper work. Now I don't even know where the trays are in one of three storage places. I also have two booklets of Hardeen and HH. They are both signed and I have no idea where they are. One thing of interest about their cuff escapes is after they escaped the photos show all Houdinis cuffs locked and all of Hardeens unlocked.
I don't have these items because I am a collector.
I would never by an item just because it belonged to Houdini.
I really don't care. I remember people years ago people trying to sell me an HH autograph for only five dollars.
They were shocked when I refused. The only autograph I have asked for as an adult was Dunninger and I have it.
The only other one I am intersted in is Thuston.
I would like to add that with all the books being written today, why has no one done one on Hardeen? He was just as good or better than Harry. He was in the press all over the world.
Well thats enough for now. Norm

Brad Darling 25 Jan 2010

#22

Speaking of Thurston, does anyone know where I can reach him. I need to talk to him on an unrelated matter. We're from the same 'hood.

Thanks,
Brad