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Finish Leg irons

20 visible archived posts · 20 preserved total · topic ID 3543
Original topic ↗Recovered images
Mark Lyons 31 May 2010
#1
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Frank Kaiser 01 Jun 2010
#2
Mark,

I cannot explain the leg irons but since my main business is custom leather, I can give some insight as to the "pristine" condition of the leather.

There can be 2 different reasons for this. With the smooth (grain) side of the leather to the outside like this, sweating, constant wear, and rubbing will cause the leather to burnish and become glossy. In essence, it seals the leather almost as if it were a finish put on the leather. When I make holsters and saddles, if I rub the damp leather long enough with a piece of beveled glass or wood, it will add a nice gloss to the leather without any finish on it.

The other reason for this could be what they refer to a Cuir Bouilli. This is a medieval method of curing leather armor and also sword scabbards. They would boil the leather before application. The boiling of the leather would turn the leather very hard and add a glossy sheen to it. This process tightened the grain of the leather to the point where it was virtually plasticized or polymered.

I hope this helps out a bit.

Frank
holstcollection 01 Jun 2010
#3
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Hi Mark,

It's hard to say if these leg irons are Finnish or not, they also could be of Swedish origin.
I have a number of handcuffs and leg irons of the same design, most of them are leather covered
like the set on your picture.

The information I have on them is that they were manufactured by different blacksmiths from a
a common pattern in mid and late 1800's. The padlocks on my pictures are typically Swedish.
Also the leather is in surprisingly good shape. I use a kind of leather oil to keep them smooth
and flexible.

The Swedish ones were used by both the police and the military. Some of them also have the three
Swedish crowns stamped on them. The handcuffs are in general rarer than the leg irons but I don't
know why.

Best, Lars

www.holstcollection.com











Mark Lyons 01 Jun 2010
#4
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Frank:
Thank you for your reply. When I began this thread, I forgot to ask if it were even possible for leather to survive a hundred or more years and be in such good condition. Of course, if the leg iron was kept in a museum, in an air tight box, or other ideal storage condition, leather could survive. Leg irons that we are likely to encounter have been handled and put out on tables at antique or gun shows and exposed to much more abuse. When I first saw irons like these for sale, I was skeptical that they could be authentic as it looked like the leather was too new or recently added.

Lars: You have a very nice collection of these. I never even seen a handcuff version before. I am particularly fond of the nice padlocks that they came with.

I would assume that Finland and Sweden would share the same design and technology as trade between the 2 countries was prevalent long ago as it today.

Thanks for your explanations!

mark
O--O
Ron Spitz 01 Jun 2010
#5
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Frank---Thanks for the interesting information on the leather. It is great information.

About the hallmarks. I spent a few hours searching the web and most information is about precious metal hallmarks. There is a Finnish silver mark chart that shows the "A" would date to 1810. I have no idea if this would be used for non-precious metals. I did not find any information on the other mark.

Ron
holstcollection 01 Jun 2010
#6
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Hi Mark,

Thanks! I've actually never been too keen on these kind of old shackles but as they are Swedish
I guess they should stay in the collection. The padlocks are probably more interesting than
the shackles themselves.

Lars
Dorson 02 Jun 2010
#7
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Hello all,
A acquaintance of mine in Finland who I contacted to see if they could help with the markings. Possible one is looking in the wrong place to identify the marks. This is what they sent to me as follows.

I think those shackles used in Kakola - prison (town is Turku)...
When that prison is new Finland is under Russian government... I am
sorry but i cant know more about those marks... I think it is Russian
official mark or something.

Jack.Tanis 02 Jun 2010
#8
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Dear Dorson,

One of the letters in the hallmarks, the D, does not exist in the Russian, or Cyrillic, alphabet. That eliminates the possibility of the shackles being of Russian origin.

Cheers,

Jack
http://www.editing.org.uk/tanis/collectibles.htm
Dorson 02 Jun 2010
#9
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Thanks Jack, that is thing that can be eliminated then, onward goes the search and process of elimination.
Ron Spitz 02 Jun 2010
#10
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Lars--On the set I have the chain is like your first picture but the padlock is like the one in your 3rd and 5th pictures. I can just make out a name and some other information above the key hole. Can you make out the markings on yours? Do you have a key? I was able to pick mine open and hopefully get a key make if I had a blank. It is a large key and if I remember the lock is 4 levers.

Ron
holstcollection 04 Jun 2010
#11
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Hi Ron,

The padlocks you are referring to were manufactured by "Johan Walén" in
Eskilstuna, Sweden in late 1800's. They also manufactured handcuffs.

Best, Lars
Unknown / guest 04 Jun 2010
#12
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Sorry Ron,

I forgot to answer your question about the key. Yes, I have keys for all my padlocks.
Here is a picture of what the key look like, the Walén padlock first to the left.
This key is not original though but it works great.

Lars

Steve Santini 04 Jun 2010
#13
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Hello,

I have seen some speculation here as to the origins of various markings on early shackles like these.

In my personal collection I have a wide variety of early European restraint and torture instruments and some of them, yes, even some of the torture instruments, have insignia stampings.

So does a Medieval German executioner's sword I have.

My research into such markings or stampings and consultations I have had with noted European collectors of similiar artifacts has shown me that such stampings are not crowns or royal emblems to designate the item came from this country or that but instead are regional markings to designate which part of a particular country an item was made and used in.

In Medieval and post Medieval times many items dealing with the adminstration of justice, i.e. restraints, torture instruments, and execution devices were sometimes marked with the offical crest for the region of thier manufacture and use.

This stamp was not the stamp of the particular maker or blacksmith that forged the item but was instead a sort of "justice seal" to indicate that the item was owned by the armory that also retained offical ownership of the arms and armor and anything else used for the defense of law and lands.

So, to properly name these marks, they should be titled as "Armory markings" or "Regional seals or crests."

While many may tend to think of Medieval and early post Medieval justice as a sort of hap hazzard, "I needed this and the local blacksmith hammered me one out", in many cases this was not so and there was a rigid form of structure involved that designated which items were to me made, for what exact purpose, and how they were to me marked to designate ownership and chain of custody.

For instance, I have a period 1700's German wrist screw that also has a crushing plate for thumb or finger torture. This instrument bears the offical crest for the Baden region of Germany which is the district in which it was made and used under the law and oversight of the courts.

Further, I also have a more primitive Medieval torture screw marked with the symbol of a spoked wheel.

In Medieval times the spoked wheel was the symbol of the post of offical town or village executioner as many victims during this time were sentenced to have their limbs broken via a cart wheel.

Unlike the regional and armory stamps that denoted a district or manufacture and use the wheel denoted the instrument was the personal property of the executioner.

But still, even here, we see that the stampings or symbols pounded into the metal offered a line to the ownership and the legal office or officals that used such a device.

Early justice may have been brutal and primitive by today's standards but there was in fact an organized system of what, where, who, and how, solidly in place in most cases.

Cheers, Steve Santini



Ron Spitz 05 Jun 2010
#14
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Lars---Thanks for the information. Finding a blank is the next step and since the temperature is over 100 deg F and much hotter in the garage, I'll have a lot of time.

Steve--Your information is most informative. It would be great if you could put it in one of your upcoming books you have mentioned you were working on. As you know one could spend a lot of time and come up with nothing. Thanks!

Ron

Steve Santini 05 Jun 2010
#15
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
For the kind words.

I intend to have it in my upcoming book on ancient restraints and torture instruments.

Cheers, Steve
Dorson 05 Jun 2010
#16
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
I have tried searching on the net for any good source of marks and seem to come up empty. Seems that there is not much stuff on the net or I don't know how to find it.
Steve Santini 05 Jun 2010
#17
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
That many of the marks and/or stamping used on these sorts of restraints represented legal districts that had thier own coat of arms, shields, etc.

So, unless one knows what particular region a device was made and used in as well as the time in which it was used it is going to be an extremely fruitless search.

Plus, you will also need legal texts from this country from this time period to get an idea of shields, coats, etc.

Add to this the fact that many of these old armory or district marks disappeared as one region was renamed, merged with another, etc, and you are oft times searching for a needle in a haystack.

Steve Santini
Steve Santini 05 Jun 2010
#18
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
Ron,

Since you mentioned one of the books I have been working on I thought I would offer everyone here a glimpse at the new and revised cover of it.



Ron Spitz 06 Jun 2010
#19
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
It looks great! I'm sure you will let us know how and when we can get a copy. What are the other titles you are working on?

Ron
Steve Santini 06 Jun 2010
#20
Hi,
Joe Tanner is offering a nice leg iron that he states is from Finland.
I have seen a few of these in different variations, but all of them have the same very thick glossy leather wrapped around the metal shackles.
I am wondering how all these very old leg irons have such pristine leather and if anyone can identify the hallmarks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-CROWN-marked- ... 53e194dfc0

Does anyone know more about these interesting items?

mark
O--O
Click to expand...
I was planning a book on hand forged restraints but they will be covered in this book.

So, at this time, I am only working on this one.

Cheers, Steve