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Houdini's Tower handcuff on Ebay

43 visible archived posts · 43 preserved total · topic ID 3564

Ian McColl 20 Jun 2010

Item number: 110548936364 @ebay

I am not that familar with the name Nugent and the flow of providence for the Dick Wresch collection. Can any one enlighten me?

Ian

Kevin Connolly 20 Jun 2010

Here's the link.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Houdinis-3-Ring-Tow ... 19bd3ae6ac

Oly83 20 Jun 2010

I know that in theory that a large collection of Hardeen's went to Nugent who then sold to Dick Wresch. How all that came to be is a long story and probably best told by one of the pretigous Houdini collectors.

Mark Lyons 20 Jun 2010

Hi Ian,

As I know it, Hardeen inherited his brother's cuffs, photos and ton of other memorabelia.
I am not sure who received most of the stuff, but Radner got a ton of it. There has been many people claiming that they got some of these items, but their credability may be considered sketchy at best and I would use extreme caution if considering purchasing such an item. The Houdini family has given away such items as the Letter Lock Cuff and if you know it's current owner,you will know that he sleeps on Houdini's bed at night. This item is so unique that there can be no controversy regarding its authenticity.
Bear in mind, Houdini requested that this stuff be disposed of upon his death. Hardeen did not follow his brother's wishes and the world is a better place because of it. The Niagra Falls collection would never have been if Hardeen adhered to his brother's wishes.
Nugent bought a great amount of the cuffs in the early 1930's or so and I am not sure if he purchased anything but cuffs. I do think there was some locks and keys included.
Nugent then sold all of or most of the collection to Dick Wresh on Aug 10, 1954.
Wresh made up his display boards and worked the high school and college circuit, showing off the Houdini collection to students across the USA. He loved locking up the kids and showing off the historical collection. Part of Houdini's still growing popularity is a result of the vast number of people that had the opportunity to try on a pair of Houdini jewelry.
After Dick Wresh died, his son Robert R. inherited the collection. On August 22, 1993 he sold the collection and the new owner divided it up, much like what happened to the Radner collection.
The item being sold on eBay is genuinely believed to be from Wresh Collection. The Wresh collection was quite a bit larger than what was pictured in the book.
Is the cuff worth what the new seller is asking? I am confident that this item will not sell at that price (or anything even close to it) at any time in the near future.
Hope this helps

mark
O--O

Mark Lyons 20 Jun 2010

OOOOPPS,
I can't believe I spelled Wresch as "Wresh".
It is almost as embarassing as when I spelled the cool looking Lyon Presto as "Lion".
At least my dates are accurate!

Mark
O--O

Ian McColl 20 Jun 2010

Hi Mark, thanks for that. If the cuff was a Guiteau or Berliner, I might have been tempted but it a Tower and with the high tech printer now days, I wouldn't be confident that the paper work was the one and only copy to go with the one and only pair of tower cuff.

I was interested to know if Hardeen had written anything in the way of a bill of sale to Nugent.

thanks

Ian

houdinisghost 20 Jun 2010

A. Nugent, Jr. was a Richmond, Virginia handcuff collector, who, over a period of almost 10 years, bought a major collection of handcuffs and locks from Hardeen. In 1954, he sold them all to Richard Wresch. Nugent, Jr. had first approached Bessie through her business manager, Edward Saint, who wrote that, "Mrs. Houdini has a few cuffs given her by Harry Houdini having a sentimental attachment, but she had none for sale." However, Saint added, Houdini's brother, known professionally as Hardeen, had fallen heir to the Houdini collection of restraints.
Nugent then began buying cuffs and locks from Hardeen.
Here are some of the problems with these particular handcuffs: every important cuff or lock which Hardeen sold to Nugent came with an original letter from Hardeen to Nugent describing the individual piece and giving its history (usually a challenge to Houdini and/or Hardeen by someone or other).
These are original letters signed by Hardeen, one letter for each piece.
These cuffs do not come with such a letter.
The Nugent collection was bought by Richard Wresch in 1954. Bill Liles and I went to see the collection when Dick Wresch Jr. showed them in San Bernardino in the late 70s.
I don't know when exactly, but, Joe Tanner bought the collection from Wresch Jr. and sold it to Sid Radner and Henry Muller. I assume the certificate from the previous owners is signed by them. The xerox copies of letters and bills-of-sale and such probably do not refer to this particular set of Towers, but are sort of "catch-all" letters.
I do not believe that this pair of cuffs can possibly be traced back to Houdini or Hardeen. The letters of remonstrance are inconsequential, general rather than specific, xeroxes.

joe tanner 20 Jun 2010

to ALL :::: portions of what you say or tend to believe are SOMEWHAT true, but most is horse crap.... that is how RUMORS - NON TRUTHS etc etc come to be... sometimes it HELPS what people believe but many times it HURTS what people believe... esp - for FUTURE collectors....really only ONE of you have ever even attempted to contact ME to get any info on the HOUDINI - WRESCH collection etc etc.... to HOUDINI'S GHOST (no desrespect) but you should try to get some of your facts right, before stating something.....RADNER & MULLER -- DID NOT -- buy the ENTIRE collection.... they purchased MOST of the RARE items, but BOB & i also KEPT several of the RARE items as well as many of the lesser items - which included many of his booklets, locks, & keys..... would anyone care to ask or see some of the ORIGINAL documentation ????? joe tanner

houdinisghost 20 Jun 2010

I think what is called for is: any original document containing a reference by Hardeen to this specific pair of Tower handcuffs.
I would also like to know what became of a very interesting letter from Hardeen to Nugent that accompanied a Berliner Cuff. Hardeen wrote that Houdini was challenged with this particular Berliner cuff during the Cologne libel trial--as I recall, Hardeen said that Franz Kukol spirited the cuff out of the courtroom while Houdini distracted the court personnel. The letter also stated that the cuff was unique--one of a kind. I don't want to know who now owns the cuff, but, I am curious to know where that particular letter ended up.

joe 20 Jun 2010

#10

A HA !! there is the rub.. now you have changed your tune somewhat in saying that you would like to see the DOCUMENT letter from HARDEEN stating the TOWER handcuff.... the SELLER does not state that there is a DOCUMENT specifing the TOWERS ...only that it came from the H - W collection -- which it did..... as you said -- IMPORTANT cuffs ... i am sure that NO ONE figures a TOWER cuff to be an important cuff... more later... joe

houdinisghost 20 Jun 2010

#11

I didn't ask you to produce one of the letters to prove that this cuff is traceable to Houdini. I asked for "any original document from Hardeen" that might indicate that those Towers belonged to Houdini. Any reference to the sale of those particular Tower cuffs to Nugent.
The way you misquoted me and the way you are parsing words about this ebay item should scare any but the most unwary away from this auction.
If you are the "previous owner," why don't you say that the sale will include a letter of provenace from Joe Tanner which proves Houdini owned this cuff.
The letter about the Berliner cuff is another matter. Nugent had that letter and Wresch had that letter. That cuff appears to have been separated from the letter of provenance that Hardeen wrote to go with it.
Where might that letter be today?

joe tanner 20 Jun 2010

#12

yes, i am a PREVIOUS OWNER, but i am NOT the CURRENT - OWNER -- SELLER of the TOWER cuffs -- so again - you jump to non fact conclusions.. if you are not the owner the the BERLINER - then why should you care where the (if any) doucument letter is.... i have MANY CERTIFIED - copies of the ORIGINAL -specific document letters that i had CERTIFIED from the ORIGINALS -- just for MY OWN files & records.... i am going to attempt to post a couple of photos with this post so i hope they appear.... if they do - great... if not, i will e them to JOE.... joe

Unresolved image reference ↗

houdinisghost 20 Jun 2010

#13

The scans you posted are marvelous and filled with information.
The problem is the complete lack of provenance for this particular pair of handcuffs.
There is no mention, even in your xeroxes, of Tower Cuffs.
The cuffs Hardeen refers to in the copy of a letter to Nugent that you posted are accounted for and I would swear that Wresch had individual letters for those cuffs. He had them in acetates in three ring binders.
Can these Tower handcuffs possibly be traced back to being owned by Houdini?
Not so far.
Many of the cuffs sold at the Butterfield auction had the Hardeen to Nugent letters (originals) in the frame with them.
You sure don't want to talk about that missing--if it is missing--letter of provenance regarding the "Cologne Trial" Berliner Cuff.
It would be a shame if it were lost as it was among the most interesting of the Hardeen to Nugent letters of provenance.

joe tanner 20 Jun 2010

#14

in regards to the H-W items, i have 5 or 6 original GROUP item letters from HARDEEN...... i just thought that i would post ONE of them for all to see.... back to that one later.... there WERE several GREAT individual proof letters from HARDEEN, but as i said - MOST - of them went to RADNER & MUELLER ....THEY sold the items WITH the DOC'S -- EXCLUDING -- where they actually came from. !!! i have said it before (in the past back when the RADNER auction was happening) WHY ??? didn't they state that those items came from the H-W collection !!! one of my theories is that -- a bad stigma seems to arise when H items or whatever the item might be -- when one states more then a couple of lines of PROV... the more people the seller has to name -- the less BELIEF there is.... TRUE or not..... i HAVE CERTIFIED -- COPIES -- of each of those docs -- again - for my own files.....maybe that is why the CURRENT seller of the H-W - TOWER cuffs did not meantion my name.... his choice.... crap, if i can't even get $4,500 for a LILLY or ROMER LEG IRON with a SIGNED piece of DOC from POP RENO --- he certainly will not get anywhere close to his asking price... joe

houdinisghost 20 Jun 2010

#15

The following ad was in MUM Nov 1951
FOR SALE
HANDCUFF COLLECTION
All of the Principal & Historied pieces of the Houdini & Hardeen Collection ofat least 25 Pieces. Entire Collection consists of 100 pieces and considered by the late HARDEEN to be the greatest Handcuff Collection in the world. The Ideal Collection for a Walk Thru Store or Truck Show.
$1500.00
Full Information, History Etc. for a Dollar Bill.
A. NUGENT, JR.
12 N. Third Street Richmond, Va

"The entire collection consists of 100 pieces."

"All of the Principal & Historied pieces of the Houdini & Hardeen Collection of
at least 25 Pieces."

The statement that Nugent owned all the principal & historical pieces is not correct. Nugent did not own any of Houdini's "supercuffs" (Bessie got the Mirror Cuff, the Russian Manacle and the French Letter Lock Cuffs, Hardeen got the Hungarian Manacle, which Sid Radner still owns).

But, Nugent's ad says "at least 25 pieces." Okay. maybe a few more than 25.

But, not more Houdini handcuffs than pieces of the true cross.

But, the big deal, the smoking gun, is in the bill of sale to Wresch (posted above).

"The Houdini and Hardeen pieces in this collection are specified by letter verifying same."

76 of those handcuffs and legirons in the Nugent/Wresch collection were not connected to Houdini in any way and are connected with Hardeen only insofar as he told Nugent that with the cuffs and legirons he had bought from him (plus Nugent's other cuffs) that the Nugent collection was the "greatest in the world."
In that same letter, he acknowledges that there were other cuffs in Nugent's display "the majority bought by you from me."

If those Towers were from Hardeen, there would be a letter to that effect.

There is nothing to connect those Towers with Houdini.

joe tanner 21 Jun 2010

#16

what was written in the MUM -- MAY NOT -- be the truth...get & read the article in the VIRGINIA TROOPER -- so much has been written & said - who knows what the truth is --- i know that YOU do NOT. as i DO NOT ......say what you want as it seems that you are simply out to DISPROVE anything that HARDEEN - NUGENT - WRESCH or I have to say... i have said it before -- YOU EITHER -- ACCEPT IT - or YOU DON'T ... are you one of those people who because THEY did not get the stuff - they are out to make sure no one else believes ... I THINK SO... you keep harping on the TOWER cuff so you must have it out for the current seller... i as well as other people on various subjects try to be helpful & each time - it seems that there is always someone out there who just wants to cause & be trouble... i HAVE a letter specifing the TOWER cuff, but it is in a group letter...... YOU want to be MR KNOW IT ALL -- go ahead - no skin off my back ... i am DONE with this post... good luck to all... joe

houdinisghost 21 Jun 2010

#17

You found a chump.
Now the chump is trying to find another chump.
Joe, if you sold a Berliner Cuff claiming that it was the Berliner described in the Wresch book, "Houdini, Handcuffs and Legirons" (republished by you) WITHOUT THE ACCOMPANYING LETTER FROM HARDEEN TO NUGENT--A LETTER THAT IS KNOWN TO HAVE EXISTED AND WHICH ACCOMPANIED THAT BERLINER CUFF--if you sold a Berliner, claiming it is that one both Wresch (in his book) and Nugent (to Hobbies magazine) spoke about, then, something is very wrong.
Where's the letter?
Also the letter stated that the Berliner was unlike any other.
Was the Berliner you sold as the one from the Houdini/Hardeen/Nugent/Wresch chain of custody unique?
Where's the letter?
For that matter, where's the real Houdini Berliner cuff?

Anonymous 21 Jun 2010

#18

Mr. Ghost

How is your new book about Houdini doing? Haven't heard much about it since last October.

houdinisghost 21 Jun 2010

#19

It's a slow difficult process but I'm sending a proof copy to Kevin Connolly tomorrow and in a couple of days he might have a definitive answer to that question.
Patrick Culliton

Fred G. Sanford. 21 Jun 2010

#20

Magicians are scam artists.

Ian McColl 22 Jun 2010

#21

I am right to consider that Hardeen has only written one letter to confirm the sale of some handcuffs and that copies of this letter have or may have been passed on to anyone buying a handcuff which is alleged to have been one of the foresaid cuffs?

Or did Hardeen with great fore thought, write a letter to be passed on to the purchaser of any given handcuff in the distant future?? And if so does anyone have a copy of a letter stating somehtin like palmer handcuff (marked with scratches on the middle section of the non locking side) was once owned by my brother Harry Houdini. Etc etc...

Personally I couldnt imagine him typing out and collating approximately 25 odd letter to go with 25 odd different handcuffs. I am also curious of the numbering system for the Giant Beans, marlins, English and Pinkertons. (#51356 #51359 #51355 #51354 #51353 #51352 #51358) surely they didnt start with 00000.

houdinisghost 22 Jun 2010

#22

Each of the 25 or so handcuffs and locks that Hardeen sold to A. Nugent of Virginia over a period of 10 years had an individual letter on Hardeen photo stationary which described that piece. One handcuff or lock, one letter.
Several of the people who post to this site have one or more of these cuffs and the individual letters that went with each one.
When Nugent sold the collection to Wresch in '54, there were about 75 cuffs and legirons that had no connection to Houdini or Hardeen.
These have been turning up with "certificates of authenticity from the previous owner" and xeroxes that don't mention anything about the cuffs.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER THAT THESE HANDCUFFS WERE EVER OWNED BY HOUDINI OR HARDEEN--IN FACT THERE IS THE OPPOSITE!
Then, there are the Houdini cuffs that come from the Dunninger collection.
The problem with the cuffs (and accessories) that Dunninger said were Houdini's was that Dunninger was the only guy who said they were Houdini's. No evidence placing the cuffs in Houdini's hands. This is complicated by the fact that Dunninger himself had presented a challenge handcuff act.
Among the classified ads in the Feb. 1917 Eagle Magician:
ILLUSIONS
ILLUSIONS, BARGAINS. Throne Illusion, Cross, Levitation, Modern Cabinet, Trunk Trick, Spirit Cabinet, Mind Reading Outfit, Willman's Coin Ladder, Handcuffs, Escapes. Lists of hundreds of bargains also in smaller magic mailed for stamp. Dunninger, 810 Jackson Ave., Bronx, New York City
Like the non-Houdini cuffs from the Wresch collection, these come with a certificate from the previous owners, but, it there is no provenance whatever, nothing to connect most of these cuffs and locks.
In a previous post to this thread, a "previous owner" acknowledges that he doesn't know whether The Tower Handcuffs were actually Houdini's. He must have decided that since he didn't know, he should say that it was a Houdini cuff--the logic being that he didn't know it wasn't.
Sure!
A mystery arises about a special Berliner that had a most interesting letter from Hardeen to Nugent describing it. I don't know where the real Cologne Trial Berliner and its accompanying letter are now, but, I know a Berliner that cannot be traced to Houdini and Hardeen were sold to a victim with the "certificate of authenticity" from the previous owner and the xeroxes that don't mention the Berliner.
There is no fixing this. The genii, in this case a whole bunch of bogus Houdini memorabilia, is out of the bottle.
Let the buyer beware!

Unknown / guest 22 Jun 2010

#23

http://www.houdinisghost.com/hardeentonugent.html

At the above site is one of the 25 or so letters that Hardeen wrote as remonstrance--one letter for each cuff or lock he sold to Nugent.

The letter on this site came with a heavy Hyatt plug eight, missing the key, but, accompanied by a universal plug eight pick. very nice item.

All the letters I have seen, including the now missing letter that accompanied the now missing Cologne Trial Berliner Cuff, are on this same photo stationary.

Look at the copies of documents Joe Tanner posted on this thread.

There were no catch-all letters from Hardeen to Nugent to cover other cuffs and locks. There was one letter for each piece that Hardeen sold to Nugent and Nugent sold to Wresch.

The other 75 or so cuffs and leg irons that Nugent sold Wresch were the non-Houdini items in the Nugent collection.

holstcollection 22 Jun 2010

#24

Ok, maybe its time for someone to kick my ass! I have never understood the cult about Houdini as Ive never been very interested in the subject; Im a simple restraint collector.

I very much like history and Houdini is doubtless an important part of it as he gave name to many restraints. All of us owe him a great credit for that. One of my favorite handcuffs is the Berliner and I know he gave name to them.

If there is a very rare, preferably a documented "one off" handcuff, that has survived and now is a part in someones collection, I certainly understand the proud owner. I also understand the historical and financial value of such a restraint.

What I can't understand is how a common handcuff like a Tower, which was made in thousands and thousands, would be more valuable because it once or twice was touched by the master himself. It was a very common handcuff and it still is. -With or without a letter of authenticity.

Small girls and boys stay off washing their hands if they managed to touch their pop star... I've never been into the cult of a personality.
Im sure many of you want to kick my ass but this is my sincere opinion to this topic.

Lars

www.holstcollection.com

houdinisghost 22 Jun 2010

#25

"What I can't understand is how a common handcuff like a Tower, which was made in thousands and thousands, would be more valuable because it once or twice was touched by the master himself. It was a very common handcuff and it still is. -With or without a letter of authenticity."
Agreed!
But, Houdini was Houdini. And will be. And that inevitably amps up anything that was his as a collectible.
In this case, actually in many cases, we have memorabilia which is sold as genuine that is fake--have you seen some of the autographs that come with a certificate of authenticity?
There is a famous rumor that may or may not be true that one seller decided what in his large and very impressive collection that the cuffs that belonged to Houdini were the cuffs that were old enough to belong to Houdini. No question, many, perhaps most, of the older cuffs and locks did come from Houdini or Hardeen, but, according to the rumor, other old cuffs and locks had fallen into the collection as well.
If there is clear, amazingly precise, remonstrance: a letter such as the ones Hardeen sent to Nugent. That's remonstrance. Or a photograph of Houdini or Hardeen with a cuff or device in which the collectible is clearly identified. That's remonstrance.
I think the answer is that for most "Houdini handcuffs" one should not pay more than the cuff is worth without the Houdini connection.

joe tanner 22 Jun 2010

#26

i am addressing this for IAN'S & all other NICE persons benefit.. see more photos below...... althou, i see that the DIM WIT know all person has once again INSERTED HIS FOOT INTO HIS OWN A - NO NOT MOUTH ...NO DOCUMENT EXISTS THAT SHOW GROUPED ITEMS OWNED BY HOUDINI --- DA !!! what the heck is the previously posted doucument letter that states SEVERAL items that belonged to HOUDINI.... you will also find below MORE grouped HOUDINI - HARDEEN docs..... mr know it all DOES have an AX to grind with me as when i purchased all of the HOUDINI - DUNNINGER items from MR SILMSER, it was HE & DUN daughter who tried to say that SILMSER sole the items... the FBI even contacted me & took the PROOF letter signed by MRS. DUN to examine it for forgery .. well, i got the PROOF doc back with a tiny APOLOGY from the FBI ... need i say more !!!!

back to the H-W stuff...... OF THE H-W items we were able to identify approx. 37 YES - 37 (don't remember exactly )RESTRAINTS that were from HOUDINI - ACCORDING - to HARDEEN !!! there were SEVERAL individaul docs speaking about a SPECIFIC item & there were SEVERAL docs speaking about other HOUDINI restraints etc .... WITHIN those docs there were also a few items that belonged to HARDEEN himself......

i still have a few items from the H-W collection, but they are in a sence worthless NOW as i am not considered an AUTHORITY on HOUDINI etc etc ( i have NEVER claimed to be ) & the STIGMA that has been said by a SO CALLED - AUTHORITY - NOT !! has placed on the H-W items.... as i have said before, if an item comes from someone who is PRECIEVED ( BUT NOT ) as an authority on HOUDINI etc they can sell & sell & sell whatever they want to & claim that it belonged to HOUDINI, but in truth - the ITEMS did NOT !!!

over the years i have just been a GREAT business person ( ya i will brag alittle ) because i was a GREAT business person -- heck - i was able to RETIRE at the age of 50 !!! heck, i even took many of the ORIGINAL keys that were with the DOCUMENTED HOUDINI restraints & sold them seperately ( of course i replaced the keys with other keys) & still have some of them.... now isn't that just smart business ... some of you of course will say NO.. no biggey.....

IAN --- below is a photo of a GROUP letter doc mentioned a PALMER, but not much more

below is a photo of doc letter where HARDEEN talks about -- NEVER SEEING ANYTHING LIKE IT ---- it is a KNOW FACT that some of the information contained in the WRESCH booklet is WRONG ... MAYBE -- JUST MAYBE the captions for the BERLINER BELT & the BERLINER cuffs are mixed up -- backwards in other words.... i will keep you guessing on that one

below is a copy taken from a PHOTO that i had as i no longer have the items... so it is alittle grainey, but i think good enough..... it shows the BARREL KEY - BEAN GIANT as well as the BERLINER cuff...........

photo fo the BERLINER cuff... if you have a copy of the WRESCH booklet, you check it & compare the photo in the booklet with this BERLINER & see that they are the same cuff...... again -- maybe WRESCH got the two photos mixed up with their CAPTIONS.... as there is nothing really different with this BERLINER then other BERLINERS --- EXCEPT that at the time, this one was/is considered to be a large body size.... but now with the world opened up i am sure that it is not......

Unresolved image reference ↗

houdinisghost 22 Jun 2010

#27

I never communicated with anyone ever about anything Joe Tanner bought having anything to do with Dunninger. I have never mentioned the name Silmsler in my life. I have never said anything whatever about the Dunninger items, Tanner bought. Nor have I ever spoken of Mrs. Dunninger--in my life.
He's got me confused with someone else.
I'm the guy who caught him red-handed selling "Houdini Handcuffs" that can't possibly be traced to Houdini.
You're retired, Joe?
Better stay retired.

Unknown / guest 22 Jun 2010

#28

Every single cuff and restraint that Hardeen mentions in the letters Tanner is using to con people has an individual letter to go with them.
That is the fact.
That's why the Tower handcuffs on Ebay are not mentioned. Nugent did not obtain them from Hardeen. If he had, there would be a beautiful, descriptive letter about those specific cuffs, handsigned by Hardeen.
The people who presently own these items know that.
In the letters to Nugent, which Tanner is posting, in which he mentions several restraints, Hardeen is adding information on the pieces that he forgot to mention in the individual letters.
Check the Butterfield and Butterfield auction catalogue. Some of the cuffs and restraints in Tanner's catch all (catch nothing) xeroxes were sold--with the accompanying letters from Hardeen--at that auction.
Every piece Hardeen mentions in those letters has its own, specific, letter of provenance.
If a cuff doesn't have that, don't buy it.
If a cuff mentioned in one of the xerox letters to Nugent comes up for sale, be careful. It probably did not belong to Houdini or Hardeen. Another collector already owns the actual cuff and its original accompanying letter of provenance from Hardeen.
Can everyone see how this scam has been working?

joe tanner 22 Jun 2010

#29

WOW !!! i really am beginning to like this post.... each time YOU - GHOST continue to show the readers how STUPID & NON - KNOWLEDGEABLE you really are... i do not think once have you answered or addressed any of my findings - statements or reasoning.....

ONE big point is that you keep skipping over the fact that i have a few more group letters...... you keep harping about the SINGLE item docs & state that -- that is all there is - that the rest are garbage..... NO - NO - NO -- there are many many OTHER cuffs MENTIONED by HARDEEN that HARDEEN states that were HOUDINI'S or HIS...... YOU only CRY -- CRY -- CRY & bitch - bitch - bitch.... you must really be a big DISAPPOINTMENT to you parents as i am very sure that they raised you right... the way you talk -- there is NO ONE out there that has a LEGITIMATE restraint that belonged to HOUDINI.....

pretty soon, we may hear you say that the letters signed by HARDEEN are made up -- even the ones that were in the RADNER aucion --- which i have certified copies of..... i suppose that now you will say that i have sold DUPLICATES of those restraints etc.... go for it... you are DISAPPOINTED in the fact that i probably have had MORE real genuine HOUDINI items go thru my hands then you have... LMAO .... also, you stated what you did about MRS. D. only because you know that i can't proof it... maybe you have never met MRS. D. but you have talked with the DAUGHTER ... keep it coming ... joe

houdinisghost 22 Jun 2010

#30

Where's the documentation on the Towers you sold some victim?
You are confused. Very. I have never discussed anything about you, Dunninger, Dunninger's daughter, that other guy you mentioned, or anything you may have obtained from them. All news to me.
Who's got the real Cologne Trial Berliner?
The one with the letter from Hardeen talking about that particular Berliner and its history in great detail, the original letter on photo stationary, signed by Hardeen.
The nastiest part is you do this to people who think you're a friend.

joe tanner 22 Jun 2010

#31

why do you care who has it ... also, why do you care what other DOC that i have ...... i think that you are just fishing for info for your book... but doing a horrible job of it.... those FORTUNATE people who have bought from me are satisfied with what they got & the DOC's that they received as i have NOT received one complaint from any one of them nor have i heard any thru the grapevine...... ONLY YOU !!! & you don't have a leg to stand on -- WHY -- as i said earlier -- we already know where it is !!! LOL ... joe

Anonymous 22 Jun 2010

#32

Pat, I seem to remember you having a pair of Nugent/Wresch/Tanner cuffs.

Unsatisfied 22 Jun 2010

#33

There are many people not satisfied with dealings they have had with Joe Tanner

houdinisghost 22 Jun 2010

#34

In an earlier post on this thread, I gave this webpage:
http://www.houdinisghost.com/hardeentonugent.html
It's the letter that came with a Hyatt plug 8 with plug and a universal pick for the plug 8 in lieu of a key. The cuff is accurately described in the letter and Hardeen tells a great story about it. He does not claim it was owned by Houdini.
Great stationary (on acidic paper) with a photo of Hardeen.
Hardeen and A. Nugent appear to have had a good relationship, and they both were interested in handcuffs and leg irons.
Tanner has posted some copies of letters in which Hardeen talks about handcuffs and restraints he has sold to Nugent. each of the handcuffs and restraints he refers to had their own individual letters of remonstrance signed by Hardeen. The letters which refer to several different items are just to add tidbits of information that had come to him.
Hardeen sold Nugent some twenty-five or twenty-six very nice pieces--and there is an original letter to go with every piece just like the one I have.
Mine is not a rare cuff, but, some of the cuffs and locks were quite unique.
Many are in the Butterfield and Butterfield catalog. Every piece that Nugent obtained from Hardeen has (or used to have) its own, specific, descriptive letter.
Patrick Culliton

joe tanner 23 Jun 2010

#35

again -- you show how STUPID you are .... YOU know for FACT that every item that HARDEEN ever sold -- went with a doc as you describe... how old are you as you must be close to 130 years old to have BEEN there with HOUDINI or HARDEEN hand in hand at every turn that either of them made !!! WOW !! i do congratulate you on that MAGICAL feat..... then YOU must have been there when WE (not you) purchased the H-W restraint collection & KNOW exactly what docs there were & HOW THEY WERE WRITTEN..... oh wait -- maybe YOU bought the H-W collection & this is just a ploy to fool everyone ...... ya - that has to be it.....keep your STUPIDITY coming... joe

houdinisghost 23 Jun 2010

#36

That's what I said.
Joe's documentation backs this up nicely. But, if any one out there wants to believe that the xeroxes that don't have anything to do with what he's selling and the letter of authenticity from Joe, is just as good as the original individual descriptive letters from Hardeen to Nugent, they should go ahead and buy "Houdini handcuffs" from Tanner.
Like that poor sap on ebay did who's trying to get out from under those Towers Joe bunco'd him into.
The proof about those Towers being connected with Houdini is on the way, right, Joe.
Patrick Culliton

Big Dummy 23 Jun 2010

#37

I have a hiatt 222 for sale with a xeroxed letter of authenticity.
From the Fred Sanford junk collection.
$3,000

Aunt Ester 23 Jun 2010

#38

6th Season Sanford and Son Episode : Chinese Torture

Amateur magician Grady (Whitman Mayo) attempts to perform his "famous" Chinese-wristlock trick. As a result, Fred (Redd Foxx) and Esther (LaWanda Page) end up handcuffed together. With Grady unable to decipher the trick's instructions (they're written in Chinese of course), Fred is forced to literally drag Esther along when he goes out on a date.

Aunt Ester

If my face fell into a batch of cookie dough, we could make Gorilla Cookies!

Anonymous 23 Jun 2010

#39

I will second the statement that J.Tanners dealings & ethics Are to be seriously Questioned ...No witchhunt here , Just FACT !

Old typewriters are a dime a dozen these days as it "aged" paper Anything can be 'doctored' to look legit. Anything !

Egyptians museums and So called scolars have been doing it for yrs. so to Forge documention fron only the 1920s-60s- is a Cakewalk !

It is indeed interesting to see Just how Many cuffs/restraints that ol Harry had "altered' and or 'fixed"

JIMI HENDRIX'S GHOST 23 Jun 2010

#40

Hey Joe, where you goin' with that cuff in your hand?
Hey Joe, I said where you goin' with that cuff in your hand?
Alright. I'm goin down to scam some old lady,
you know I caught her buying tower cuffs from another man.

Michael Lee 24 Jun 2010

#41

Most interesting to see ol Harry having so many cuffs 'fixed' and or 'Altered'

I have a Writing analist friend that works for NYPD here in NY where I was informed that w/ the number of old typewriters on the market these days and the variety of of "Aged ' paper that are available well..Anything can be forged........
My opinion is that quite possibly the Towers were listed among a number of other general/common cuffs of the day.

Michael Lee

joe tanner 24 Jun 2010

#42

MICHAEL ::: you maybe right -- i am sure that HOUDINI & HARDEEN had a number of FIXED cuffs, but as far as the cuffs that were in the H-W collection - there really weren't any so to speak..... when we first acquired the collection, we went thru & checked ( unlocked etc ) every cuff that we could & this is what we came up with ----- we believe that HARDEEN - did NOT really know that much about REGULAR cuffs..... meaning for example -- FIXED marlin cuffs -- he MUST have considered because you had to insert the key - then turn it 1/4 -- then push down on key & turn some more -- is what HE considered FIXED .....???? just guessing ........ ONLY -- ONE of the BEAN GIANT cuffs -- was FIXED -- the BARREL KEY one & really would one call it FIXED ....... joe

houdinisghost 24 Jun 2010

#43

The Towers aren't listed anywhere. "zuzu_taffy" who is selling them on ebay got taken. Nothing, absolutely nothing, to connect these Towers with Houdini.