M&C Mark - Military and Civil Departments

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

I was told by a Militaria Collector that M&C stood for Military and Civilian.

Alex Nichols book page 337 shows a 1958 letter from Reuben Craddock and Sons which mentions Ministry of Supply, and Crown Agents. I prefer to agree with your current thinking even though all theories are possibly correct depending on what time period we are talking about because the Ministries changed names.

Now, just to throw something else into the mix. I have a broad arrow marked cuff with a capital i under it. It could stand for India, but it could also be Ministry of the Interior. see Wikipedia link

Could the M.C.I. marked handcuffs be Military, Civil, Interior Departments? or do I think too much - or not enough?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interior_ministry

"An interior ministry (sometimes ministry of home affairs) is a government ministry typically responsible for policing, national security, and immigration matters. The ministry is often headed by a minister of the interior or minister of home affairs. In some countries, matters relating to the maintenance of law and order and the administration of justice are the responsibility of a separate justice ministry."

Joe, I believe you named the Hiatt "Home Office" cuff after these departments which were once called the Home Office. Maybe the fluffy ones can be called "home affairs"

Paul Davies

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

The cuff you have with the /|\ I is the mark for the Indian Army , a rare cuff indeed as it makes for a positive identification for the Indian Army , most /|\ marked cuffs could of been used by any dept. of the British Govt. , but this one identifies a certain Army. I too have one of those cuffs.

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

Joe,
I have no comment on the subject either way, but am enjoying the conversation.
I just wanted to say that your photo has to be the most perfect exposure of a cuff that I have ever seen.
Did you get a new camera?
How did you illuminate it?
Keep them coming!

mark
O--O

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

Mark
No photographic secret just luck.
If a monkey takes a 1000 pictures, at least one will look nice.
Joe

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

I have one such photo of the thousand I have taken

Ian

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

Bananas are on me!

mark
O--O

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

Hello all,
I picked up an interesting set of Hiatts that might go back to the 1910's time frame and they are not backstrap style. They are stamped with HIATT with Number 2 stamped right below that. Now here is where it gets interesting, below that is the letter H and right below that is the broad arrow. Then a further down number 7 is stamped sideways, and on the other side of the bow it is stamped M&C just below that is 1915. the end cap is stamped with the letter T. When I get a chance I will take pictures as this one is a challenge due to the fact it was spray painted with gold and maybe coat of lacquer.

-Dorson

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

The answer is somewhere

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

Dorson, there are no Commonwealth countries starting with H either. I don't suppose it is a serifed "I" for India?
Paul

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

try a liquid solvent called GOOF-OFF to remove the lacquer and the gold paint, also could the letter H BE A NUMBER 13 ???

LK D~D

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

Here you go...



As you can see it is an H not an I with the broad arrow.
The end cap on the lock has a T stamped too.

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

Dorson , Great pictures of the handcuffs.

For a long time we have been trying to figure out the meaning of the M&C mark that appears on British Army handcuffs for about 80 years, from about 1860 through the time of the first World War.

In my British Handcuffs book I suggested that M&C stood form Ministry and Crown. This is a well known term in Canada and in New Zealand, but references to the term in Britain are scarce. Never-the-less the term made some sense.

However a search of Google books reveals that the term Military and Civil Departments was a standard term used for the various Departments of the Army not directly concerned with warfare.

For example the list shown below from 1855 shown the various groups grouped together under the Military and Civil Departments. The include the Board of Ordnance, the civil war office and war department, the pay office, the judicial office, the military college and military asylum.

There are many other 19th century references to the Military and Civil Departments that can be found via a Google Books search.

So my current theory is that M&C simply stands for the Military and Civil Departments. Comments?

Joe

Click to expand...

Yep, that's an H.
Probably Home Office.

I spoke with a British Military person (a current colleague) who is into military history. He believes the M&C is an umbrella term which accommodated various sections of the military and that it does refer to "Ministry and Civil".

What ever became of Dorson?
He was a great contributor and had some knowledge to share with us.
He knew metals too.
Hope he is well.

Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs wrote: ↑

Nov 07, 2022

What ever became of Dorson?
He was a great contributor and had some knowledge to share with us.
He knew metals too.
Hope he is well.

Not seen that name in a long time. Unfortunately I suspect the worst. I hope I am wrong.