The Forum at Handcuffs.Org

Provenance?

20 visible archived posts · 20 preserved total · topic ID 3598

houdinisghost 10 Jul 2010

I wonder what the story is that goes with these.
http://cgi.ebay.com/TOWER-DOUBLE-LOCK-L ... 35aab80139
You know, Houdini didn't like Tower Double Locks---

Anonymous 11 Jul 2010

I can live without the cuffs or this seller. Nuff said.

Anon456 11 Jul 2010

How do we know that the seller isn't finding cuffs in good condition and having boxes made up and documents that are questionable. For the asking price, I would think about doing something like that... Guess I probably have scruples...

Joseph Fox 11 Jul 2010

FYI---Stephen Sparks (seller) has offered these and about 6 others restraints (Bean Giant;Caveney; Cobb, etc. for the past 12 years or so...all with the same documentation paper-trail.

Mark lyons 11 Jul 2010

I thought there had been a few of these....either that or I am having another deja vu experience.
Wonder if he ever tried selling a Providence Tool HC.
I would love to see a Providence with provenance!

mark
O--O

John Bushey 11 Jul 2010

Hello,
Steven Sparks has been a dealer of Houdiniana for many many years. I'd venture to say at least 20 years. He has come across some
truly great and rare items. I trust him as a dealer, although many of us know that real Houdini items are very difficult to prove.
Especially for items like Towers or Cavaneys. As a matter of opinion, much of the known provenance out there is doubtful.
Even the Wresch collection seems to have many problems as posted recently. But, Sparky is not the kind of person who would just take another
handcuff, and "package it" as Houdini's. I believe that he really believes these were Houdini's. And while they may or may not have been Harry's,
I'll vouch for Mr. Sparks. As for the price, I believe it's too high for today's market for a Tower LI, Houdini's or not. Now, if it were a
Berliner, or pair of McKenzie Mitts - that might be another question. We've seen handcuffs sell for over $6000 in the past few years with no
connection to Houdini at all. At least they're very rare handcuffs.

John

Anonymous 11 Jul 2010

John writes, " I believe that he really believes these were Houdini's." This is the same theory for theists but it doesn't mean we should be foolish to follow. If he cannot see that the trail of evidence does hold together then he should re think his position.
Ian

joe tanner 19 Jul 2010

having just got back from a super 12 day trip - i always check the forum to see what good stuff ha been written & what CRAP has been written.... of course, this thread is CRAP due to the ANON posters & the originator.... when YOU don't know FOR FACT --- you people should just keep your mouths shut & leave it to a prospective buyer to use their own judgement... i somehow have gotten the idea that SOMEONE wants to discredit ALL possible HOUDINI or HARDEEN or DUNNINGER or any one else's restraint.. i say this as SOMEONE - may - have what they figure is a TRUE documented restraint & by discrediting ALL others - then they can auction their item thru a highly touted auction house & get $150,000 & more.... maybe ???? maybe not - nay.... joe

houdinisghost 20 Jul 2010

Welcome back after that unbearable silence from you. Was it only two weeks?
I assume you are ready to post the evidence that links the 3 ring Towers with Houdini.
You said you had it. You said it was coming.
Since you've been away, everyone who matters has been made aware of who currently owns the genuine Houdini Cologne trial Berliner and the letter of provenance that describes it and gives its history from Hardeen to Nugent.
We know where the real one is. And we know you passed a cuff that cannot be traced to Houdini off as that Berliner. You sold it without the letter of course. The guy who owns the real Cologne Berliner wants to keep the real letter with it.
You didn't take very good care of that collector you sold the bogus Berliner to.
You just took him.
Now, what are you going to do next to keep future suckers--I mean collectors--from being disappointed.

Anonymous 20 Jul 2010

#10

yes, it is good to be back to read all the BULL that you & some others try to pass around...... will just refer them to your rantings & ravings....

joe tanner 20 Jul 2010

#11

H-GHOST ::: i am calling YOU an outright LIAR !!! i could post a copy of the proof letter from ME that i provided the buyer of the BERLINER cuff to show ALL exactly what i stated, but of course - YOU - would state that i just typed it up - right ... in MOST of the proof letters of the restraints that i sold from the H-W collection i stated that the item CAME FROM THE H-W COLLECTION because THEY DID !!! get your facts right before you spout your mouth off !!! but NO - you don't & you don't want to as you just want to get your name in print for others to see & know who you are....... by the way -- you never seem to mention that the BERLINER that i had & sold from the H-W collection had a (serial number) stamped on it & IT MATCHED the S.N. in the HARDEEN proof group letter where HARDEEN speaks about the BERLINER ..... do you !!!! YOU are a LIAR .... joe tanner

John Bushey 27 Jul 2010

#12

Just another point of view here. I researched the trial from Houdini's perspective. The Hardeen/Negent story was published by Dick Wresch
in his 1961 book The Great Houdini Handcuffs and Leg Irons. I checked many rare books in my own collection written by Harry Houdini, including
America's Sensational Perplexer (@1903-1904), (both editions I have). Then, the Wresch book mentioned the 1922 Adventurous Life, so I checked that
pitchbook as well. Then, I searched Life History and Handcuff Secrets of Houdini, The Life and Adventures of Houdini, Houdini, and also checked
the Kellock biography, Cannell biography, and Christopher's biography. The most information is found in Silverman's biography of Houdini. I'm told
that there is a scrapbook of the trial which was put together by Houdini. In it were all the clippings from the papers during the trials, broadsides
advertising Houdini's victory, and in absolutely none of the above books (except the Wresch book) was there any mention of a Berliner used during the trial, nor any handcuff for that manner. In the first trial he was "chained" and locked with a padlock. See the Silverman biography for the most detailed description of this trial, and I assume since it contains information not found elsewhere the Kenneth Silverman had access to the scrapbook. The second trial he opened a padlock which, once locked, even the key would not open it. The only mention of the Berliner is from Hardeen to Nugent and published by Dick Wresch. I guess my feeling is that if Houdini,who was known to enjoy being photographed in Berliners, did escape from one during the trial that the newpapers or even himself would have written about it. So anyone out there, is there any other mention of a German handcuff being used in the trial? I think this handcuff, regardless of who has it, certainly may have been a Houdini handcuff, but I don't think it was used in the
Cologne trial. I've transcribed Houdini's version of the trial from America's Sensational Perplexer, should anyone care to read it. Let me know.
There is even a photograph of him "as chained and locked in the Cologne trial". The famous German poster of the trial shows him in handcuffs, but it's
an artists drawing, and while one handcuff does resemble a Berliner, it also has a portion hanging down which looks like a Stotz, and another part
shows what looks like a chain. I have a nice repro 1/2 sheet of that poster, and it's better and more detailed than the ones in the books.
Anyway, it's interesting. John

atlanta*casting 27 Jul 2010

#13

Know what? Isn't it just too bad that H. Houdini didn't have all his handcuffs and leg irons engraved like a fine

rifle or colt handgun of the day so then there wouldn't be all this never ending conflict and BS ...

I think that short of having cuffs and irons sent to a crime lab to see if Houdini DNA present there is really no

way to be 100% for sure know proof positive if ever even touched by Houdini.

I like this site and posters all have things to contribute but this crap is very tiresome.

just putting my two cents in. Thanks.

Best.

houdinisghost 28 Jul 2010

#14

In the letter from Hardeen to Nugent which identifies the "Cologne Trial Berliner," and gives its history and relationship to Houdini, Hardeen makes a couple of apocryphal statements--that is, they may or may not be true. He says that the Berliner was unlike any other in the world. He says that Houdini was challenged to release himself from them by the court. He says that Houdini's assistant, Franz Kukol, spirited the cuff out of the courtroom while Houdini distracted the judges.
In the translations of newspaper reports of the court proceedings, there is no mention of Houdini being challenged to escape from handcuffs by the court.
There is mention of Houdini bringing in a whole bag of handcuffs and restraints "for demonstration purposes," and he did some demonstrations with his own cuffs and restraints but one judge mentioned that it was interesting but had no bearing on the case.
The lock they were interested in was the lock with which Werner Graff secured the Berlin Chain he had applied to Houdini when he had challenged him onstage. Graff said Houdini had to bribe a traffic officer named Lott to give him a duplicate chain in case he had to saw his way out. Graff said Houdini had attempted to bribe him, too.
That was the basis of the suit. Werner Graff accused Houdini of trying to bribe him and actually bribing Lott. Houdini said that was not the case and sued Graff for slander.
Houdini won the case and two appeals. At one point, he opened Graff's lock for the judges without using a key (he fastened an elastic bandfrom his foot to the lock and banged the lock open against a plate on his shin).
Franz Kukol, so far as we know, started with Houdini in March, 1903. The Cologne trials were in 1902.

joe tanner 28 Jul 2010

#15

--- NOT wanting to start another war here, but my take on what HARDEEN stated about the BERLINER cuff --- there is not another like it --- is simply that at the time - true enough so to speak as not many people had ever seen a BERLINER... therefore to HIM -- that may well be what he believed -- and in a sense -- was the TRUTH - so to speak..... who knows & we will never know --- maybe ALL of what happened - said to have happened - said by WHO -- are all nothing but lies & fabricated stories... maybe some of it truth & some not...... all i can say is that from the SEVERAL + HARDEEN letters - proofs - whatever you want to call it that i have is what i have to go by as well as what DR. WRESCH stated etc etc --- TRUTH OR UNTRUTH..... I HAVE TO ACCEPT IT .... if others want to -- good -- if others don't -- then they don't...... now going back to what HARDEEN said about the BERLINER -- when i examined the BERLINER - the only thing that i could find that other then what i stated above is -- that YES, it was/is the BIGGEST square bodied BERLINER that i have seen, but not by a whole lot... who knows, maybe that is/was the only thing HARDEEN was meaning... we will never know..... joe

houdinisghost 28 Jul 2010

#16

No war, Joe. Just want to thank you for acknowledging that the the letter from Hardeen to Nugent which decribes the "Cologne Berliner" exists.
The guy to whom you sold the bogus Berliner doesn't have it, of course. The present owner of the actual "Cologne trial Berliner" cuff sold by Hardeen to Nugent has the letter.
But, finally, an acknowledgment of the letter and its contents by Tanner. We're making progress.
Joe, are you ready to publish the "evidence" that proves the 3 link Towers were Houdini's now?
You did promise the aforesaid was forthcoming.
HANDCUFF COLLECTORS EVERYWHERE,
DON'T PAY MORE FOR A HOUDINI CUFF THAN THE CUFF IS WORTH WITHOUT THE HOUDINI CONNECTION UNLESS YOU ARE DAMNED SURE OF THE VERACITY OF THE CUFF'S PROVENANCE--AND THE INTEGRITY OF THE SELLER!

joe tanner 28 Jul 2010

#17

GHOST ::: man you can't leave it alone - can you.... MAYBE the person of whom you speak has a letter - maybe not... MAYBE that person was the one who was taken.... i BELIEVE SO !! maybe all those who have purchased a HOUDINI restraint or padlock or key have been taken......i NEVER acknowledged anything about the so called COLOGNE BERLINER..... WHY DO YOU INSIST IN TRYING TO PUT NON TRUTH WORDS IN WHAT A PERSON SAYS ????? YOU ALL KNOW what i stated -- NEVER saying anything in a possible connection --- only what HARDEEN stated -- NOT ME !!! also -- YOU - LIE - AGAIN & AGAIN & AGAIN --- i NEVER said that i WOULD provide proof of the TOWER ... i said that i HAVE IT !!! big difference... i believe most people KNOW ....
to everyone who reads posts on this forum, i APOLOGIZE to ALL OF YOU for the stupidity that goes on - on this, but IF i do NOT defend THINGS as well as myself --- LIES will be believed by others down the road... sorry !!! i will really try to refrain from addressing LIES about this topic in the future...... joe

joe 28 Jul 2010

#18

sorry !! folks, but i left something out of my just previous post..... GHOST ::: you state the another person has the BERLINER from the WRESCH - HOUDINI collection.... along with a proof letter FROM -- HARDEEN ---- .. then tell me why WRESCH did not SHOW -- TWO -- BERLINERS & the BERLINER BELT ??????? i take it that YOU were sold a bill of crap .... why don't -- YOU -- whom i suspect is the owner of the NON-HOUDINI BERLINER ... and if not you - whoever --- post a COPY of the LETTER PROOF from HARDEEN & from WRESCH etc etc .... proof is in the pudden & you ain't got any......i sure hope that the OWNER of the HOUDINI-WRESCH - BERLINER -- that i SOLD FROM THE HOUDINI - WRESCH COLLECTION is PRINTING all this as we have to go by what is and the HOUDINI - WRESCH - BERLINER - is DOCUMENTED not only by HARDEEN -- BUT ALSO BY DR. WRESCH AND HIS BOOKLET !!!!! joe

houdinisghost 29 Jul 2010

#19

When Joe Tanner and Bob Rosen bought the Wresch collection, the cuff identified as the Cologne Trial Berliner with the letter of provenance dealing directly with that cuff from Theo Hardeen to A. Nugent, was included in the sale.
Now, nobody knows better than Joe Tanner and Bob Rosen where the real Houdini Berliner and its accompanying letter of provenance are now.
And nobody knows better than Joe Tanner that the Berliner he sold to a collector replete with non-specific xeroxes and a letter of provenance from Joe Tanner himself, is not that Berliner referred to in the Hardeen to Nugent letter and the Wresch book.
On second thought, maybe Bob Rosen knows better!
I await another post from Joe Tanner written in his usual concise gibberish which will offer no evidence whatever that, in the case of the bogus Houdini Berliner he sold that victim, he is not guilty of perpetrating a deliberate fraud.
Then there is the matter of the three ring Towers. Selling those cuffs as genuine Houdini cuffs to some poor sap. . . Wow!
But Joe has the proof they were Houdini's. He said so.
Hey, Joe, why don't you offer up that proof so you can help the sap unload the Towers?

Chufu 29 Jul 2010

#20

I will side with Joe Tanner. He is a good guy and knows his stuff. Behind him is years of experience of Prynce Wheeler who was around and getting information on cuffs before most of us were born. Norm