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Locks that automatically open under water

43 visible archived posts · 43 preserved total · topic ID 3658
Original topic ↗Recovered images
Chufu 20 Aug 2010
#1
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Ian McColl 21 Aug 2010
#2
This is a very old idea of yours. I remember you writing me many letters to ask me to design this lock for you back in the early 1980's.
Your design as pictured with the rotating disc will not work and especially in conjunction with an actual cylinder. Its too easy to make the comment Any craftsman who can build this can install a lock cylinder and make it work.

Both are not true and when they couldnt make this naive design, you would accuse them of not being a craftsman.
As a self claimed locksmith, I am sure that you can produce an actual working sample and allow those who are knowledgeable in this field to examine it to see if it can do what is claimed.

It was suggested to me by yourself that one should stick to what they know and not give advice on subjects that they do not have a full grasp on. I see you have not listened to your own words.

Anyone who knows of brilliant work of Escher, knows it is easy to draw anything back harder to build it.
Keep thinking, this one has been in the pipeline now for 30 + years.

Ian
Chufu 21 Aug 2010
#3
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Ian,
It seems you can't make it work. I can fit a cylinder to work very easy. I was working out ideas before you were born.
You presume I would accuse a craftsman of bad work if my design dosn't work. Now there is a point you can't prove.
You talk a lot. Just because you can't figure it out dosn't mean the next guy can't. Save your fancy quotes.
You had about 20 some odd years and you couldn't figure something out?
The idea is only not new to you but it is to others. Your I can't attitude will never help this art and neither is your need to have people prove everything to you.
I have had plenty of people say my ideas won't work like the Doors of Death and they work fine.
If you have a point that needs proving as untrue then you spend your time proving it. I got stuff to do.



Norm
Ian McColl 21 Aug 2010
#4
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Interesting that 30 years ago that you needed to ask for my help but at the time you had been working as a locksmith and couldn't do it. Now 30 years later you rehash and old idea and cannot produce photos and superior technical info and drawings to make you case. Seems like the typical Bigelow propaganda to me.

Shame you wish to try to elevate yourself by designing something and telling the world but in truth, it doesn't work. You should sell perpetual motion machines instead.
Chufu 21 Aug 2010
#5
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Ian, I don't remember asking for any help. I only tossed you a concept as I am doing here. Concepts are good for the art.
In any case the world is full of the people who say, I can't therfore it can't be done.
I will be doing more on this concept soon. look forward to your helpful comments on that also.

Norm
Mick Hanzlik 21 Aug 2010
#6
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
I have looked at this and I wonder if a working model has been made. I think we all would like to see some photos of the finished product. The concept seems good, but if it has been in the pipeline for all these years, why haven't we seen it in reality?

Certainly interesting
Fred G. Sanford 21 Aug 2010
#7
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
The only thing to do is scrap the whole idea. Sounds like junk to me.

Chufu 21 Aug 2010
#8
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Dear Mick,
There is no model. I mostly do concepts. It has been in the pipe line for years because I sent the concept to someone years ago and just forgot about it. I am not even sure if this is like the paln I sent out.
I only recently remembered about it when I went through a box of escape plans that I have been adding to over the years. I have experimented with asprins and spring plungers. I have also had other locksmiths look at this and they felt this can be done. One even gave me a suggestion that I am going to bring up in my next paper.
I have seen other concepts of mine come to life in the hands of others and I believe one day this one will also.
Norm
Fred G. Sanford 21 Aug 2010
#9
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
How about a lock that opens with fire?


Anonymous 21 Aug 2010
#10
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. pillock - a person who is not very bright; "The economy, stupid!"
dolt, dullard, poor fish, pudden-head, pudding head, stupe, stupid, stupid person
berk - a stupid person who is easy to take advantage of
blockhead, bonehead, dumbass, dunce, dunderhead, fuckhead, hammerhead, knucklehead, loggerhead, lunkhead, muttonhead, numskull, shithead - a stupid person; these words are used to express a low opinion of someone's intelligence
klutz - (Yiddish) a clumsy dolt
simpleton, simple - a person lacking intelligence or common sense
Ian McColl 22 Aug 2010
#11
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Norm, you know you asked me, you did it in letter form with drawings and cassette tape years and years ago. You brought up the subject with me only last year. You say, I only tossed you a concept as I am doing here." but you claim above that your testing proves it works. We would like to see.
You might want to think that "concepts are good for the art" but i couldn't have made a business out of concepts. I have actaully made the things I dream about and not offer concepts. That would be like a singer that never sung a song but had the idea of one day writing a song.

"I will be doing more on this concept soon." I hope you color in your drawing, that will be doing more.
"look forward to your helpful comments on that also." do you mean you want others to work it out for you.

Ian
Chufu 22 Aug 2010
#12
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Ian, I am not sure where you get your information. I said I have tested asprins under spring pressure. I never said I have proof it works. Also I don't expect anyone to do anything unless thay want. I am getting old and leaving behind my ideas instead of them being lost in death.
As I said you talk a lot. I have met many people who appreciate and use my ideas. I think this winter I will make a model of this lock but you won't see it. Some will but it won't be you because I am not the least interested in what you think.
I don't run to the alter of McColl so he can approve or disaprove anything.
What is so entertaining is guys like you going off on a little drawing. There are real locksmiths who believe this can be done. They have the, "I can do it attitude."
Even if this lock just inspires another idea from someone it's worth it.
Why do you lecture me on how you make business with finished ideas not concepts? I care? I want to be like you? Your not even in the loop as to what I am really doing, yet smart magicians know. You are out of your element here because you already said it was impossible but those of us who are artist, believe in making the impossible possible. You are like a little kid. I want it now
You also reveal that your real problem is not this lock idea. I was inventing good lock ideas and making tools for them before you were even a thought and I will continue on until I can't. Norm
Larry 22 Aug 2010
#13
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Remember that Three Stooge routine where somebody is selling a pen which will write under water, and the guys go one better and invent a pen which will write under whipped cream?

Forget the water! What the world really needs is a lock which will open automatically under whipped cream.
Chufu 22 Aug 2010
#14
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Larry,
I think you are on to something. Keep the ideas coming and we may get a whole act out of this. Norm
Anonymous 22 Aug 2010
#15
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Re: Locks that automatically open under water
Ian McColl 23 Aug 2010
#16
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Hi Norm, you ask where I get my information. In your first posting you stated. I have done enough testing to know this will work.
From what I can see, all you have given us is your word that aspirins will dissolve in water. I think most of us already knew that.

I am not asking you for prove of your system, you have said that it works and offered a drawing. All I have pointed out and a few others, is that from your diagram and description, it doesnt work.

Your offering of this information suggests that your concept works and that craftsman can build it which is not true. You yourself havent built one and from the drawing and description no one else can either.
It like drawing a box and putting two circles underneath it and claiming I have invented a car!!!
So what are we supposed to appreciate? It all seems self indulgent and self obsessed.

I can have an I want it now, when I know you have been pulling over this idea for over 30 years.

This message board is for sharing ideas and information. Most people who come here are happy to learn new things, or to have old long held ideas over turned on the basis of newly uncovered information. It is based on real experience and honest sharing of opinions and knowledge. It is not about making claims that cannot stand up to critique.

Ian
Chufu 23 Aug 2010
#17
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Ian, you say it won't work others say it will, so what, are you are the last word? The begining and end. It has been thirty years has it. Well why didn't you get the job done?
Everywhere you go you think every thing has to be proven to you. I say not.
If you look at the heading of my paper it says Theoretical. What is it the Theory or the retical that confuses you? I say it works and you say I am making claims I can't back up. You say it won't work and it is impossible. I say you are making claims you can't back up.
You say people come here for this and that. I say speak foryourself. Your the one doing all the complaining.
When did you tell me in the last thirty years the idea would not work? Never. Now I am putting it out there for others to take a crack at you complain.
Who cares about people who say it will never work when they have not even tried? I will build it as model this winter for the craft but because I want to. I am not here to do your bidding I am here to make sure my ideas in part or in whole are not lost. This idea has not been tossed around for thirty years as I never talked about to anyone else but you.
Let's take a look at this, I say it can be done if not by me then by someone. That leaves a wide path and includes a lot of brain power of others.
You say it is impossible. So what you are saying is because you can't do it none of the other people can do it either.
I would say my statement at least sounds intelligent. I may have a high opinion of myself because I believe I know it can be done. But you have an ego out of control to believe just because you can't solve the problem no one else can.
To think in this day and age no one is smart enough to make a circle go a half turn and perform a couple of simple functions is absurd.
I think you have no point except to argue. So I am done explaining these things to you.
I have experimented with spring loaded plungers. I have a cardboard mock up. Locksmiths have weighed in and think it can be done.
Again I have more coming up on this subject and I will post it as that paper will be available also.
I don't know what else to say. Ian has spoken, it can't be done!
Norm
Ian McColl 23 Aug 2010
#18
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Hi, you answer your own question here, you have already stated you have tested it and that it will work. You say others say it can be done. So which is is it? You always say others think you are right but they are not the ones that have ever emailed me. However I do get those who tell me that your ideas don't stand up and those who say they just delete your crazy emails. Rarely do I hear from anyone that things you are anything as good as what Norman Bigelow thinks of Norman Bigelow.

Cardboard mock ups will also get soggy if placed underwater.



Chufu 23 Aug 2010
#19
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Ian, Like I said you talk a lot. Your a prove it type a guy. Prove you got those e mails and who are they? Your the only one talking. I have nice e mails about my work or writings and publish them often.
I wonder why you think because I come up with a concept I have to prove it to you. Who do you think you are?
Every where you go there is trouble. Your not an escape artist or even a performer why would I care what you think?
You once said women should not perform escapes because they make it look easy. Do you still stand by that?
You recently attacked Kondini for a challenge he claimed he did and you were suggesting he prove it to you. You suggested it was a set up. So what if it was? Do you not know set ups are part of the art?
You think of your self as some sort of a prop dealer yet you hassel the very people who might want to buy your product.
I stand by my original statements. I say it can be done by me or someone. You say it can't be done because you can't do it. That doesn't sound intelligent to me. This won't end because your not intelligent enough to make your point and then let it go.
I am done talking to you. I don't care what you think and many people in the craft don't either.
Unless someone has a question or something spacific about this lock I am done with this thread and when I post more I will not reply to you if you come back for more.
You once said that you did not understand what I meant when I said I start controversies yet almost any magician,escape artist or theactrical performer understands, just not you.
I will explain it. You have given my Underwater Cuff idea more notice on this board than anyone. If you really knew what you were doing you wouldn't even give me a mention. And that's all over a sketch you say I can't prove. Pretty good attention for a concept that hasn't even been built. Thank you, your lack of knowledge of the escape craft has served me well. But un like you I know when to take my bow and get off the stage.
Norm Bigelow
Ian McColl 23 Aug 2010
#20
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Hi Norm, you would make a good politician, say a lot but dont say anything. Do a word count for who talks the most. At least I keep to the subject. If you are offering the escape community a concept and say your numerous testing makes it work but it doesnt, then you have lead someone a stray.
Dont take it all so personal Norm, if you have an idea and it doesnt gel, even after 30 years, think up another one.
All the best for next time.
Ian
Edgeplay_Cgo 23 Aug 2010
#21
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
I've seen the sketches of the lock mechanism. I'm not sure how much I can say, as I haven't been given permission to reveal the secret.

There is certainly no theoretical reason why the mechanism wouldn't work. The basic mechanism is dirt simple. The devil is in the engineering, not the theory. I've seen plenty of theoretical designs that don't make it in practice.

I see potential issues with reliability. I would want to see a hell of a lot of real openings before daring to test these on a person under water. In your article, you mention being sure to have a Plan B in case of mishap. I suspect this is for legal reasons as much as anything. But from a practical POV, you'll discover late in the game if something has gone wrong. At that point, you'll want your Plan B to be simple, fast and bombproof. I suggest that maybe that should be Plan A.

I think it would be difficult to marry the disk release mechanism to a conventional lock cylinder. I can think of a couple of ways to do it, but the lock case starts getting bloody large. The interface may be the real death of this concept. I'm not saying it can't be done, but no one has cosidered it worth the trouble of doing.

It may be that the reason it hasn't taken off in thirty years is that it failed the Rule of Fisging Lures. (The first task of a fishing lure is to catch a fisherman.)

Anonymous 23 Aug 2010
#22
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow

Anonymous 23 Aug 2010
#23
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Steve Santini 23 Aug 2010
#24
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
If the drawing posted above is in fact the plan for this lock, I agree with Ian. It wil lnot work.

Aside from a number of mechanical faults that clearly show this design will not even function as a lock, there is the simply terrifying "pill" that is supposed to dissolve allowing a plunger to drop down and the lock to open.

Firstly, I cannot see any venting or other openings that would allow enough water in to dissolve the pill in a timely fashion, and secondly, there is the residue or sludge of the dissolving pill that could prevent the plunger from fully depressing or that could in fact act like an abrasive and jam it altogether.

Add to this the very real possibility that an air bubble could get trapped in the pill space preventing the plunger from dropping and you have a potential masterpiece of death here.

I say the above not with an agenda but as an escape artist and locksmith.

Underwater escapes even with fully gimmicked "pull open" gear are dangerous enough and have in fact taken a few lives over the years.

Something designed like this would no doubt take a few more.

Steve Santini
Chufu 23 Aug 2010
#25
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Thanks for all your thoughts. I do have a plan for water entering, I am not limited a rigid stance on this. I will change it as needed when I build a model.
One thing I am sure of is no air bubble will take place in the plunger area when I am done.
I also have a plan for the cylinder to operate this.
I am confident that I can make a working model.
Norm
Ian McColl 23 Aug 2010
#26
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
I put up the drawing that was in Norm's email as a reference to what was being discussed. Thank you Steve for you comments.

Ian
Steve Santini 23 Aug 2010
#27
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
If water can enter the pill chamber, so can air.

Steve Santini
Steve Santini 24 Aug 2010
#28
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
All it takes is a mechanical mind to look at the drawing and one can instantly see it will neither work as a padlock nor as an escape lock.

Cheers, Steve
Bruce Thomson 24 Aug 2010
#29
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Polo mints were used to activate an underwater camera. The mints were found to dissolve at a rate that fit the time frame needed in the lowering of the camera and prevented premature film exposure. If the issue of pill size is involved then grinding one mint down to the right size shouldn't be too hard.
This does not affect any mechanical issues relating to design or veracity of the theory of an underwater locking device.
The above mint tests were done in the early 1970s, and Polo mints may no longer be manufactured.
Chufu 24 Aug 2010
#30
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
To clear up some of the issues. The reason this has been in the so called pipe line is because only one person other than myself had the drawings and nobody tried to build it.
I had no plans to build it. One look and the drawing and someone knows it won't work and that is the statement of a locksmith not an escape artist. Escape art is about problem solving.
I have much more in drawings for the rest of this lock but why give them to people who already admit it is to complicated for their skills when I am going to have to make the model
anyway.
I will be talking about this more in another paper but I won't include the key system. I will only say like the disc it is "dirt simple."
I will build the model this winter and in the spring see if I can demonstrate it and get it filmed at a nearby SAM club.
Normie
Steve Santini 24 Aug 2010
#31
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
To take a slam at people, who, BTW, know very well about locks.

Your quote:

"I have much more in drawings for the rest of this lock but why give them to people who already admit it is to complicated for their skills when I am going to have to make the model
anyway."

"Complicated" is a word that is a far cry from "practical".

It is like if many moons ago someone threw out the idea that man could fly but they offered nothing in the way of practical proof and science as to how it could be done.

And then one day a person came up with the forced air duct fan aircraft engine.

For one person it was an idea.

For another it was a factual project based on years of experience and science.

The two have nothing at all in common.






Steve Santini 24 Aug 2010
#32
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
In one of your manuscripts you have a hand drawing of a set of Smith and Wesson model 90 handcuffs you state can be turned into a "King Breaker" handcuff king defeater cuff by following your drawing and instructions.

Your drawing shows the interior of the handcuffs fitted with a coil spring and plunger instead of the leaf spring that S&W has always used in thier handcuffs, (only the 94 was fitted with a coil spring to drive the pawls).

So, obviously, the "concept" you offered in your publication does not work, is not practical, and has never been tried by you.

If you had actually built it, you would have known that the guts of a S&W model 90 were very different from what you drew in your book.

To my way of thinking, throwing out fictional "concepts" that have never been tried and have no basis in fact does the art of escapes no service at all.

To speak from a position of authority when there are no real facts to back statements or theories up is bad medicine at best, and could get someone into escapes hurt or killed at worst.

Steve Santini





Chufu 24 Aug 2010
#33
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Yes there is a type o in that and other manuscripts. I not only built them during the 70s I sold single cuffs with plexi glass fronts to see the inner workings.
Norm
Anonymous 24 Aug 2010
#34
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
But you still sell the manuscript, even though it does'nt work.
Chufu 24 Aug 2010
#35
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
The manuscript contains a correction statement in the begining. It is the first page and large so anyone can see it. Mr Santini knows that because it was there long before he picked up on the problem.
The fact is no one picked up on this and it was published in Joe Tanners escape magazine.
Steve knows this because I told him years ago (2004 or 5) that the mistake was pointed out to me and I have to correct it.
So the only reason Steve even knows is because I told him.
If Steve wants to talk cuffs let talk about the Chubbs which he is reputed to be able to pick.
Norm
Ian McColl 24 Aug 2010
#36
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Santini, you have brought up some very interesting and factual points. It is interested that Norm's opinions and ideas change with the wind. In the blink of an eye he will turn 180 degree to make something suit his agenda. By adding or subtracting information Norm weaves a story to suit his concepts of how things should be. He adds in motional verbs , like abuses or attacks sometimes even blackmail etc to assist his cause but he doesnt mind if its a fabrication. Truth is not is strong point.
In one of the above posts he claims I attacked escape artist Kondini at another forum but didnt elaborate. This would help me look bad. You can read it athttp://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... orum=18&34
I did point out to Stuart Burrell who started the thread, that all may not be as it seems in an alleged challenge to Kondini.
In a post above, Norms makes these statements.. You suggested it was a set up. So what if it was? Do you not know set ups are part of the art?
Each statement has a different bias, so Norm is trying to cover all his bases at once. In answer to the last question, I do know set ups are part of the act and I was helping Stuart not to rush to any discissions. One doesnt have to be a performing escape artist to understand the art.
Norm also pulls from this piece at the magic cafe that if I was to challenge someone I would stoop to the position of locking someone up so they couldnt get out. As you will read, I said If the challengers wanted a win situation, then they would have put a neck chain once around the neck and padlocked it firm, they didn't and it was slipped.
As Steve Santini rightly points out. Norm tried to design a King Breaker handcuff. For those who arent familiar, It is a handcuff which appears to function as normal but the challenger can do something secretive to the handcuff so the escape artist will not get out and the cuff would have to be cut off.
Norm has the desire to interrupt and humiliate an escape artists performance but tricking them into a handcuff which is set to malfunction.
Now Norm threatens Steve to discuss a Chubb handcuff which Santini has picked in his act. Does this mean that Norm now wants to ask Steve the same old questions all over again? You suggested it was a set up. So what if it was? Do you not know set ups are part of the art?
Norm you have been banned from the Magic cafe site and the Genii magic site and your web of lies and accusations should be banned here also.

Ian
Anonymous 24 Aug 2010
#37
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
I for one would like to see Norm banned from here!
Chufu 24 Aug 2010
#38
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
In my next manuscript I will discuss the actaul use of this type of cuff. Since it is a special item it would be for special acts. I hope if Alexandria the Great does my shipwrected idea she might use it in that act.
Norm
Steve Santini 24 Aug 2010
#39
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Hi Ian,

I thank you for your truthful appraisal and comments.

I come here to discuss real restraints and occassionally post about some escape work I may have going on.

I try to keep the escape posts to a minimum because of couse this is not an escape artist site.

Those do exist but I do not frequent them because of the sort of tension Norm is now bringing here to these boards.

That said, I must also state that during my time of "knowing" Norman Bigelow, I have seen him laud my work one minute and then trash it the next. I have seen him embrace many people as friends only to turn on them in a split second and tear them down.

I myself have been the subject of many of his "manuscripts" and blanket e mails to people in the craft.

In many instances all these have been are attempts to trash me and my work.

You yourself contributed to one of them Ian.

With that in mind, I am keenly reminded that there are many people out there who switch allegances at the drop of a hat and as it suits their own purposes.

This is a pity.

Also a pity is that people, young escapists who do not know much, listen to people who either are telling lies or do not have the knowledge they claim to in the first place.

This is very, very bad for escapes and also does not speak well to the people who do such things.

Personally, I have told Norm to stay out of my life. I am doing just fine as an "island" and would prefer that my friends and collegues are people who seek the truth for it's own sake. Not to staisfy agendas.

Where you and I are concerned Ian, we mended our fences long ago and so it shall stay.

Steve Santini
Edgeplay_Cgo 24 Aug 2010
#40
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
Aside from a number of mechanical faults that clearly show this design will not even function as a lock, there is the simply terrifying "pill" that is supposed to dissolve allowing a plunger to drop down and the lock to open.

In some ways, this lock concept reminds me of the supposed German wonder weapons that The History Channel says would have won the war if only they had six more months. We derisively refer to those as Napkinwaffen. They have been developed to the sketch on a bar napkin stage. There is nothing wrong with that; all designs have to begin somewhere, but that is not a design. It is a half baked concept.

I think the disc lock mechanism could be made to work if it were refined. Whether it would make a good lock is another question. It would be largeish, as the disc needs a fair amount of size to accommodate the various plungers and tabs. That counts against it right there. It also has the potential of being finicky. That would be a death sentence for the design. The user may have his own ideas about that, too.

There is the unaddressed issue of ensuring the various parts operate and don't get jammed by dirt or corrosion. When I use firearms for serious purposes, I like to disassemble, inspect, and lube them first. I want to be sure they work. That feature, and the ability to reload the pill, must be worked into the design without adding too much size or making the thing look like an escape artist's gizmo.

The issue of mating a serviceable lock cylinder to this device remains difficult and unexplored.

Then there is, as you describe it, "the simply terrifying 'pill.' " It may be both the simplest and most complicated component of the lock. Frankly, the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of Norman's thread was, "Ah, stick an aspirin tablet in it." They dissolve quickly and well. You point out the issue of water entry and air exit. This is an absolutely critical design feature, which the napkin sketch does not cover. If the venting is too large, it becomes obvious. If it is too small, surface tension can keep the water out. Internal shapes can trap air. The cavity for the disk mechanism has the potential to trap a lot of air. This is a feature that must be extensively demonstrated to show that it will work in the field - or rather, in the tank.

This is a device that cannot be "pretty good." It must be effing bombproof. I don't think the design can be made simple enough to be bombproof. As Norman stated in his paper, you ought to have a Plan B, if you use this thing. I still say, maybe that Plan B should be Plan A.

We have a couple of noteworthy Professionals in the field who don't think much of this concept. Love them or hate them, they know their trades, and cannot be dismissed as hacks. If, as I understand, the concept has been out there for thirty years, it appears they are not alone. So far, the design hasn't passed the Fishing Lure Test.

At this point, it seems that it's time to put tool to metal and build a prototype. This will be necessary anyway, to iron out the inevitable flaws. That's what prototypes are for.

Chufu 24 Aug 2010
#41
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
As ason who did very dangerous escapes for years I well know the dangers but I also know in the hands of experienced escape artist this can be used effectivly with no more danger than a water cell or milk can.
I did not say have a back up plan because of this item, I say it about all restraints.
In todays market such as TV there is not much chance these stars would drown because they will have an air tank three feet out of camera shot.
If you go underwater without a back up plan you shouldn't be doing escapes. There are no problems that can't be solved and again I am not rigid on design or an asprin. I will use what works. Norm
Vince 25 Aug 2010
#42
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
As someone with personal knowledge of 'tricking' handcuffs for a paticular purpose, I can fully attest, from that bubble of an idea in the brain - to the first concept of "how to actually do it" - to the planning stages - to even the prototype, there are lottery-like odds that any given idea will not work. Why such controversy over just one person's idea for just one type of trick cuff relying on just one lock/release principal is beyond me!!!
Can't we all just get along?
BTW, If anyone wants me to concept a cuff that'll automatically release the ratchet via the melting Ice-Cube phenomena to be used for "Sweat-Box" escapes, let me know - I'll share that secret at the next Indy. [SMIRK]

--Vince

PS. Can't we all just get along?





Chufu 25 Aug 2010
#43
I have released my own design of a simple lock system that will unlock under water. A craftsman can make a cuff or a padlock that will work with this system.
These are hand drawings of an original idea that does not exist in the craft. I will also be doing one or two more papers to expand on this idea.
I have done enough testing to know this will work. It dosn't work on weights or floats it is my own original concept. The paper is free just let me know what e mail to send it to.
Norm Bigelow
The problem here is not the concept of the lock it is people who have personal issues and the lock gives them a point of attack. I have no problem with anyone who dosn't think it will work. I have taken notes on any suggestions given and I did not give anyone a hard time except for two who came just for personal reasons.
I have dozens of lock designs for padlocks and cuffs. Some a kid could build, some would take a craftsman. Some would be for the look and some would be gaffed. Some may work and some may not.
My first post tells the whole story, I simply said I had a paper I would mail out free to anyone who wanted it.
Concepts or theories are the jewel seed that spaws debate thinking and sometimes great ideas.
But there is no doubt that those who tried to destroy the idea only helped promote the idea. Smirk Norm