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Trying to gather as much info as I can about Lily cuffs

45 visible archived posts · 45 preserved total · topic ID 3930

GenMess 03 Feb 2011

Hello,

Here's my situation, I inhereted what I believe is authentic lily cuffs, it has a key and the inside is marked with roman numerals. I'm trying to get some information about them, some history, what to look for in them, etc. And I don't have the slightest clue where to begin. If anyone could help me it was be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Ian McColl 03 Feb 2011

hello, you are a lucky person. I (We?) would love to see a photo of both the iron and the key.
Ian

GenMess 04 Feb 2011

Here are some pictures.

My father had a few interesting hobbies, one of which was collecting handcuffs, the problem is I don't know much about them.

Unresolved image reference ↗

Dorson 04 Feb 2011

You came to the right place, if you use the search feature, there has been past discussions on these old restraints.

-Dorson

LK 04 Feb 2011

try spelling it LILLY
IN THE SEARCH

LK D~D

mark lyons 04 Feb 2011

I am beginning to think that the key pictured above is an original key.
In the Radner book, item numbers 126 (Lilly Leg Iron) and 138 (cuffs)come with the exact same key.
I originally thought the key was a water faucet or gas valve key, but I am now thinking that this is an original Lilly key. The "H" is for Horace perhaps.
The bow (handle) potion of the key is wide enough to put enough torque on the screw.
I would say you found a great item!

mark
O--O

Mark Lyons 04 Feb 2011

Genevieve,
You have a very desirable cuff and want to tell you about 1 of 2 interesting things about it.
President Lincoln was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth, as we all know. What most people do not know was that Booth was in company of several others who conspired and implemented the assassination. You can google "Lincoln conspirators" yourself to learn more about these villains. Pictured below are some or all of them wearing similar wrist jewelry as yours. Perhaps yours was actually one of the below. It is possible!
These cuffs are famous for being the restraints used on these bad guys.
I will let someone else tell the other story of how they factored in with the inventor of these cuffs, Horace Lilly, when he died.

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mark
O--O

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Ian McColl 04 Feb 2011

Thank you Genevieve for the photos and the one of the key. Last month the subject of the design of the original key was posted here at the forum. I think Damon started the thread with a photo of what he thought ws the right key and I am now thinking like mark, that this my be the original key. Thank you for adding to our knowledge base.

Ian

Paul Davies 04 Feb 2011

I recall the previous discussions about the key, and how it looked like a gas valve key. To me the key looks too ornate for what is a fairly crude looking cuff. During times of war people made do with what they had. Could it be that the cuffs were made to use an existing key ie a gas key.
Just a thought.
Paul

Edgeplay_Cgo 04 Feb 2011

#10

The key appears to be cast. Once the pattern is made, you just keep pouring them.

The cuff itself, while a simple bar cuff, exhibits some nice workmanship. It may be simple, but I wouldn't describe it as crude.

holstcollection 04 Feb 2011

#11

Stan once told me the Lily came in two general versions, the first one was
forged and the latter was casted iron. I wonder which version this one is? Any ideas?

I checked my own Lily and I guess it's forged as some parts are irregular and a little crude.

Lars

Steve Santini 04 Feb 2011

#12

Were a Lilly to be made in cast iron, which I highly doubt, given the thin material it would be very prone to breaking or cracking if struck against something hard.

For this reason I do not think the hand irons were ever cast.

The leg irons may have been cast but I doubt it with the hand irons.

S.S.

Dorson 04 Feb 2011

#13

AAARRGHHH!!! okay, calmer now... The term cast iron is so misused and manufacturing techniques. What makes iron brittle is the carbon content. Steve, please do a little studying in the realm of metallurgy and the fabrication processes.

Steve Santini 04 Feb 2011

#14

Kindly inform us on exactly how much carbon the iron used in the manufacture of cast Lilly irons contains.

I would be most interested to learn about this.

S.S.

Joshua 04 Feb 2011

#15

Alloys with a higher than 2.1% carbon content are known as cast iron because of their lower melting point and castability.

Steve Santini 04 Feb 2011

#16

Does this mean that this is the carbon content of the allegedly cast Lilly irons?

S.S.

Joshua 04 Feb 2011

#17

I would think that if it is indeed cast iron that the carbon content would have to at least exceed 2.1%. You would have to test the iron to answer this question for sure. In my field we use ASTM E1019 - 08 for similiar metals...albeit there may be much easier ways as we use ours for specifications on quality control prior to accepting a materials for a pre-qualified list.

Anonymous 04 Feb 2011

#18

Calm down Steve. You always get so snotty and defensive whenever anybody disagrees with your pronouncements in the least little bit.

Steve Santini 04 Feb 2011

#19

Just trying to learn.

Oh yeah, and I use my real name.

S.S.

Anonymous 04 Feb 2011

#20

Santini is your real name? I thought it was Adams! And, in fact, you have used several different names over the years, haven't you?

Joshua 04 Feb 2011

#21

Remember folks...someone has posted this thread to gain knowledge about a piece that she inherited from her father. Let's attempt to stay on topic. On Stans CD he has photos of both Lilly Irons can someone post a photo of these two side by side. Furthermore, I had read that the Lilly Irons actually used on the Lincoln conspirators were housed in the Smithsonian can anyone for sure validate this?

Ian McColl 04 Feb 2011

#22

From my direct experience, the Lilly hand iron is wrought, worked by hand as a blacksmith does so well. The cuff is thinner and wider than the bar as I believe it is an integral piece of the bar, flattened out and therefore made wider. The hinge is rolled in same.
The Lilly leg iron is cast and is come type of cast iron ( I know this as I have had to drill into the lock areas in order to repair a pair) and the swarf is much like any other cast iron I have drill ( though I dont claim to know the percentage make up of the metal)
The thread hole in the lock portion of the Lilly legiron is a thru hole (meaning it once went right thru the lock and therefore could be tapped and have the thread go deep
(unlike threading a blind hole where the thread tapers as the hole gets deeper)
The close of the hole, another thread (TPI) is made from the outside and a thread section of rod is used to close off the hole and is filed flush. The hinge of the cuff is also machine faced and drilled. These are more modern in manufacturer.
I doubt that the Lilly handcuff and Lilly iron were made at the same time. Like peerless and their leg iron, it may have been made years later.

Ian

PaulReardon 04 Feb 2011

#23

Looking closely at this photo, I believe I see at the end of the row of hoods and cuffs, a Lilly Iron. Also, plug leg irons and darbys. Found this on the interwebs doing a quick search. It's supposed to be at the Smithsonian Museum of National History, 3rd floor. Photo found here: http://www.naviquan.com/page/american-history/4

From another angle, found here: http://www.pbase.com/gojhawks/image/111748100/original

This next interesting illustration was found here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=9HEDAA ... q=prisoner's+dock+and+manacles&source=bl&ots=eIXCTw1ylj&sig=tRm_wD8M-lD80XS2fOPnie3DRHY&hl=en&ei=14JMTb-IFNDpgAfmmoz7Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Great thread, congrats Genevieve!

Paul Davies 05 Feb 2011

#24

http://restraintsblog.blogspot.com/2010 ... lilly.html

Here's a link to some background info on John Horace Lilly (which I cannot vouch for) and some good pics.
If these cuffs are marked JHL for his initials, why would the previous key shown be designed with just an "H".
It does not add up.

Okay, crude was a poor choice of words in my previous post. They seem expertly made by a highly skilled blacksmith but lack the "polish" of a Tower or similarly mass produced cuff from the era. The Lilly cuff follows the KISS principle - Keep It Simple Stupid. Don't get me wrong - I love them and they are high on my list of of acquisitions.
I'd like to know more about them.
Paul

PaulReardon 05 Feb 2011

#25

Genevieve, Joshua, & all:

Here's another photo I found this morning showing the Lilly's more clearly in the hood exhibit.

source:http://see-dub.blogspot.com/2010/09/jul ... ument.html

Best, Paul

LK 06 Feb 2011

#26

thank you for sharing your RARE,famious although so much still unknown about lilly bar iron.

note: it has been thought that the letters represent roman numerials and they may , how ever yours say's V IIII ? THE SYMBOL FOR 4 IS IV ? COULD WE BE WRONG IN THINKING THEY ARE ROMAN NUMERIALS ?

ALSO WHAT IS MENT BY THE V IIII ?
WAS IT TO MEAN 54, FIVE AND 4, 1854,9 ?????? ANY IDEAS ANYONE!!!!

LK D~D

Steve Santini 06 Feb 2011

#27

The numeral markings were made to help in the assembly of the parts and do not actually mean an accurate date or serial number.

On the 5 pairs I have owned over the years, each part of flat steel bar, (not the lock tubes or wrist bracelets), were marked with matching numbers.

If a blacksmith were making a number of pairs by hand he may want to know which part goes with which set.

After all, we are not dealing with a copy after perfect copy machine made mass produced restraint here.

S.S.

IKMurray 06 Feb 2011

#28

L.K.; Yes the current practice of using IV to represent the number 4 is most widely accepted. However I have a Pocket Watch, (hand wind) with Roman Numerals to mark the Hours, and it uses IIII for 4 Hrs. And I remember back many years from school, and Latin, that it was once acceptable and common, but now in the 20th. Century, standardized to IV.
I don't have a Modern watch with a Roman Numeral face, so can't comment there.
Ian (from Canada)

holstcollection 06 Feb 2011

#29

Back to the subject! At what time the iron casting method started?

Would it really be possible to make the Lily in casted iron as the walls are so thin
and wouldn't they easily break if put force to them as they would be brittle?

Maybe someone with more knowledge is able to tell!

Lars

Dorson 06 Feb 2011

#30

One way is to take the spongy mass of iron and do a forging process into a die or pattern.

Edgeplay_Cgo 07 Feb 2011

#31

Cast iron dates fro at least the 15th Century.

The problem with the Lilly hand irons being cast iron, is that they are quite thin. The stuff does not flow into deep thin shapes all that well. It might have been possible using mid 19C technology, but it would have been a major PITA.

Wrought iron is relatively easy to work by hand forging. It would be the material of choice for that kind of shape. There was no shortage of blacksmiths in the 19C.

Mark Lyons 07 Feb 2011

#32

I was doing some research on upcoming movies and found a Robert Redford directed and produced movie that will be released on April 15th.

The Conspirator is the debut film of the American Film Company. It tells the story of Mary Surratt, the only female co-conspirator charged in the Abraham Lincoln assassination and the first woman to be hanged by the United States federal government.
The plot is:
In the wake of Abraham Lincoln's assassination, seven men and one woman are arrested and charged with conspiring to kill the President, Vice-President, and Secretary of State. The lone woman charged, Mary Surratt (Robin Wright-Forrest Gump), owns a boarding house where John Wilkes Booth and others met and planned the simultaneous attacks. Against the ominous back-drop of post-Civil War Washington, newly-minted lawyer, Frederick Aiken (James McAvoy), a 28-year-old Union war-hero, reluctantly agrees to defend Surratt before a military tribunal. Aiken realizes his client may be innocent and that she is being used as bait and hostage in order to capture the only conspirator to have escaped a massive manhunt: her own son, John (Johnny Simmons).

I hope this movie will be fact based and not fictionalized like some other entertainment venues that came to light very recently.
It is my belief that Robert Redford will produce this without straying off base.

It will be interesting to see if the Lilly cuffs will be featured. I also wonder how close they come with their fabrication of these cuffs, if indeed they use them.

Not too many good movies to see these days. I hope this is one of them and that I don't need to wear odd looking glasses to watch it!

mark
O--O

Mark Lyons 07 Feb 2011

#33

This movie looks promising.
I think we will be seeing some good movies in the future.
As The Conspirator is the first movie being produced by this new company, I looked into who has started the company and found this:

The American Film Company is a film production company founded in 2008 by Joe Ricketts. Ricketts previously founded Ameritrade and, with his family, owns the Chicago Cubs. The American Film Company, founded on the belief that real life is often more compelling than fiction, produces feature films about true stories from America's past. The company has offices in New York and Los Angeles.

The company's first film is The Conspirator, a historical drama about the trial of Mary Surratt, the lone female charged as a co-conspirator in the Abraham Lincoln assassination. The film was directed by Robert Redford and stars James McAvoy and Robin Wright In keeping with the company's goal to create historically accurate films, Pulitzer Prize winner James McPherson, Lincoln assassination expert Thomas Turner, and Army historian Col. Fred Borch consulted on the film.

It looks like we will be seeing some fact filled flicks emerging from this company. It has been a long time since I watched a movie that wasn't overdone with special effects. It used to be a treat to see a movie with effects (Poseidon Adventure-Towering Inferno and others) but today it is a treat to see a movie with just good acting and quality cinematography. They are planning on doing a movie about Paul Revere in the not to distant future. There is much written about his historic ride that was fantasized and it would be good for the truth to be told on that topic.

Maybe one day, they will do a historically accurate movie on Houdini. This movie, if it ever comes to be, might actually need some special effect as it would be impossible to photograph "every key to every lock in the world" that was recently documented as being in the possession of Houdini! This might rate; 2 thumb(cuffs) up!

mark
O--O

Plungerman 08 Feb 2011

#34

In looking at the photographs at the top of the thread of the cuffed conspirators I could not help but notice that the cuffs are in terrific shape. They seem to actually have what would pass for a finish. What we see now in the best Lilly irons is a rough finish that a blacksmith would leave.

The Roman numeral 4 was actually IIII. Back then the rules of addition had you counting up all the I's on the page as part of the procedure. This changed to IV, and IX for 9, in modern times when no one did arithmatic with Roman numerals.

By way of original keys I think we could benifit from a cross polination with a key collecting forum. They could tell us the difference between clock keys, gas keys and lock keys.

Congrats to the poster on their fathers collection, and thanks for bringing it to us here.

P

GenMess 09 Feb 2011

#35

Thank you all so much for your responses. The amount of knownledge you all have about these cuffs is incredible. I collect slot machines and barbie dolls, so all of this is new to me. The history behind the them was more than I expected, and I am thrilled to know that I own a part of that.

Ian McColl 09 Feb 2011

#36

if you collect slot machines, do you have any allwins?

Ian McColl

Edgeplay_Cgo 09 Feb 2011

#37

What we see now in the best Lilly irons is a rough finish that a blacksmith would leave.

You'd be surprised how good a finish a skilled smith can produce. The rough finish you're referring to is more likely the result of a hundred years of being thrown about.

Joshua 09 Feb 2011

#38

Just to elaborate a little and thanks to Paul for the above photos! The Ford Theater museum has a Lilly iron in their "Lincoln Conspirators" display. Not sure if it is meant to be one of the restraints actually used on the captives, but it certainly implies such. Also there is a random web site that states that the Lilly leg irons were also used on the consprators. I at first thought this to just be a farse but along with the Lilly Iron there is a Lilly leg iron in the same display at the museum with the same claims. Does anyone have any photos of the leg irons being used? I've looked but so far can not find anything to validate it. Of course I could just assume that the museum knows more than I about the subject and therefor this must be true...but what fun would that be

Paul Davies 09 Feb 2011

#39

http://www.network54.com/Forum/261154/t ... nspirators

If you look at the first 2 pics I posted a while back you can see the ball from the ball and chain he was wearing. No sign of Lilly leg irons.

Paul Davies

Joshua 09 Feb 2011

#40

Here are the links to the two sights that I referenced.

http://www.picturehistory.com/product/id/2511

http://www.fordstheatre.org/sites/defau ... index.html

Paul Davies 09 Feb 2011

#41

Thanks Joshua,
from your first link they say the Lilly leg iron was attached to a ball. The presence of the ball in the photos supports what they say. Otherwise I would have thought it overkill.
Paul

Ian McColl 09 Feb 2011

#42

Here are two photos of the same Lilly cuff.
The cuff is hand forged (blacksmithed) The lines (like wood grain) on the bars and the way the hinge is formed is typical blacksmithing.
Interestingly, the locking bolt appear to be machine turned as the threaded end has a end drill hole and may have been turned or threaded on a lathe.

The lock tubes both have had a hollow end mill run over them and the circular lines (striations) on the bars are evident.

As I mentioned in my early post about the Lilly flexible (leg iron).. The threaded hole in the lock portion of the Lilly leg iron is a thru hole (meaning it once went right thru the lock) and therefore could be tapped and have the thread go deep (unlike threading a blind hole where the thread tapers as the hole gets deeper) The close of the hole, another thread (TPI) is made from the outside and a thread section of rod is used to close off the hole and is filed flush.........

It appears that the same is true with this cuff and the plug of threaded rod can be seen in the middle of the lock tube.

Interestingly, this might be the pair to the flexible leg irons (same manufacturing technique) where as the lead filled Lilly iron may not have had a matching leg iron in its day.

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Unresolved image reference ↗

LK 10 Feb 2011

#43

IAN McCOLL

Having looked back at our decussion on LILLY KEY'S on :

September 10 2010 at 12:13 AM thread
and having seen GENEVIEVE'S KEY that must be the original key!

on my leg irons it doesn't appear that their was a sleeve inserted ,but that the threads were cut into the female end of the lock body and no holes in the the male ends, although there could have been, as they seem to be rounded off after! believe they are TPI thread because standard thread fits nicely but u can wiggly a unused nut on them! CHEERS

LK D~D

Ian McColl 10 Feb 2011

#44

Hi LK, I think the leg irons are a whole new subject. I personally don't think they were made in conjunction with the Lilly iron handcuff. One is blacksmithed and the other cast. The leg iron could have been blacksmithed as well, if and when they were alleged to be made by/for Lilly at the same time but someone opted for casting.
The only thing that links these two item is the locking method and key size (square)
Sleeve? ( I am confused by that). There is no sleeve? and yes the leg irons I have seen don't have a centre drill hole on the ends by are round off and are a typical 3/8 dia BSW thread.

cheers, thanks for the info.

buckstix 22 Mar 2011

#45

So what is the value of original Lilly Handcuffs? And are any for sale?