The Forum at Handcuffs.Org

Smith and Wesson history question

38 visible archived posts · 38 preserved total · topic ID 4235

tim71 08 Aug 2011

Look at this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT

If you enlarge the second photo, you'll see that Smith and Wesson lists three finishes for their new cuffs. Nickel and blue are $12.00 or you can get chrome for $14.00.

This brings up several questions. When did Smith and Wesson officially start using the model number designations?

Was the chrome finish a mirror like finish that would make it look like a model 91 in appearance? Also if you look in this old thread:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/261154/t ... +Handcuffs

And scroll down, you'll see a third variation of the early cuffs. The dull finish cuff that is second to the right is physically smaller than a 1970s model 90, but doesn't have the center detents like the 1950s models in that brochure. It's swivels are different than the 1950s and the 1970s.

Justin and I were discussing this and I thought it might be a good thread topic so maybe someone has both the chrome and nickel finish of the early S&W cuffs and could maybe post a pic.

Tim

Unknown / guest 08 Aug 2011

Also, anybody got any comparison pics of a hi polish 90 and model 91? Did the hi polish 90 actually say anything like that on the box?

Tim

Anonymous 08 Aug 2011

Tim,

As I understand it, the Model 90 was designated as such around 1958. I offer no hard evidence for this date. I do know that a Smith & Wesson brochure from 1959 lists the "Model 90" in regular finishes of nickel and blue and the Model 91 in polished blue and nickel. It also lists the Model 925 and 926. So certainly by 1959 the designation "Model 90" was used. How much earlier than this it was being used, I'm not sure. It may be telling that the advertisement you cite from 1956 did not give a model designation. It may also be telling that the earliest boxes in the 1950's did not print a model number, but that the second generation of boxes (c.1960-1965) did.

The Model 91 seems to have replaced the Chrome/High Polish. Consequently, I don't think there would be a box or brochure that would designate the Model 90 in Chrome/High Polish finish (because it would call this the Model 91). "Tim M" lists in a thread
http://www.network54.com/Forum/261154/m ... +got+today that he has a pair of marked Model 90 'High Polish' which he believed was from the late 60's. Yet S&W brochures from 1961, 1965, and 1969 only list the Model 90 in a regular finish of nickel or blue, never "High Polish." I suppose its possible that for a very limited time S&W produced a Model 90 "High Polish" during the 60's, but I find this doubtful. He also compares the appearance of the High Polish with the 91.

Sorry, I have no pics to offer.
Thomas

grenchat 08 Aug 2011

Greetings Smith & Wesson collectors!

For what it's worth, I purchased a large sampling of S&W cuffs when the 9x series was superseded by the N.I.J. certified 10x series. I noticed that a very small percentage of the model 90s--while bearing all of the regular stampings--featured a matte nickel finish. Since most of these were used duty cuffs, only a few pairs came with their boxes, paperwork, etc. Aside from these arcane examples, I've also come across pre-model-number Peerless cuffs that featured a variation of the usual nickel-silver finish. I can't say if these were intentionally designed to reduce glare or were merely aberrations.

Happy Collecting!
Jason

tim71 08 Aug 2011

Okay here's a question then, when did they switch styles? I'm talking about how the first model 90s were smaller with the detent more towards the center then the common model 90s that were definately in existance in the 70s. When did they switch and did this coincide with the model number designation?

Tim

grenchat 08 Aug 2011

We've been trying to determine the form changeover date for a while now:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/261154/t ... nfo+needed

We should be able to narrow it down with enough examples that have known issuing or purchase dates.

Regards,
Jason

TMoreCromwell 09 Aug 2011

Jason,

OK, here is my small contribution.

I know of a dated 1968 Model 90 that has the detent under the keyhole as in the late editions. I also know of a Model 90 which was in what I call the second generation box* where the detent was more toward the center as in the early editions, but the swivel is not like them. I give the dates of this box from 1958 when, as near as I can tell, the Model 90 was first designated as such to 1965 (when Bangor Punta took over).

* The second generation S&W boxes look very similar to the first boxes produced by Bangor Punta. It has the solid silver border (vs. the later silver slash), but does not mention Bangor Punta. For what it's worth, I've never seen a Bangor Punta 90 with the detent toward the center.

Thus, c.1960-1965?
Thomas

tim71 09 Aug 2011

Here's another possibility. If you look at the brochure in the auction it's a 1956 brochure and it says new and improved model and shows the detents towards the center but yet it's accepted fact that they started making cuffs in 1952.

If you look at the link above that shows an older thread with my pics, you'll see a very early S&W cuff unlike either version. The swivels are very small (weak looking by today's standards), the bows are narrower, and the detents aren't in the center but they're not quite as far under the keyhole as the bangor punta models. Could this be the 1952 to 1955? It's the only example I've seen like it so I don't know.

Tim

Unknown / guest 14 Aug 2011

http://cgi.ebay.com/Smith-Wesson-Regula ... 2eb7140f7b

Thomas, if you look at that auction, then you're saying that there is a box just like that except it doesn't say Bangor Punta on it?

Man you'd think this wouldn't be so hard to figure out.

So are we assuming that the 91 and the hi polish didn't co-exist? Also, did the box changes coincide with some of the cuff changes?

Tim

Blackburn 14 Aug 2011

#10

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEDWX:IT

Tim i think this is the non bangor box.

tim71 14 Aug 2011

#11

Justin,

If you notice, he says second generation box. Wouldn't the box in that auction you posted be the first generation box? From what he's describing, I was thinking it was just like the Bagor Punta box I posted only without those words.

I have no idea but since Thomas says second generation box, that's the conclusion I drew.

Here's a question I'm guessing somebody can answer, when did Bangor Punta get involved with the cuffs? When did they aquire Smith and Wesson or whatever if was they did?

Tim

Blackburn 14 Aug 2011

#12

I'm sorry tim i misunderstood you. That link i just posted was a first gen box then the one you posted is a second gen box and this style is the third below. Notice the slashes around the side instead of the solid silver border.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0557159809

I also have s&w boxes that are a much brighter shade of blue

and i am assuming anything with a paper label were the last boxes produced

TMoreCromwell 14 Aug 2011

#13

Tim, this is correct. It looks exactly like the earliest Bangor Punta box, but it says "Smith & Wesson, Inc. // Springfield, MA." It also indicates the handcuff Model # on the side. While I think it is reasonable to assume this was in use just prior to 1966 (remember BP didn't buy S&W until December of 1965), the beginning date has been harder for me to nail down. I'm only guessing that these were produced when S&W begin identifying its cuff as the Model 90. I've never seen a first generation box with a Model#, and I've never seen a second generation box without one. However, it is possible that the second generation boxes were in use only for a very short time (c.1963-1965).

Blackburn, this is a non-Bangor box, but I would call this box the earlist or first generation S&W handcuff box. I think this was the box of the fifties, pre-Model# (1952-1958/60).

tim71 14 Aug 2011

#14

Justin,

I agree and those are the only three I knew of, but read Thomas's reply very closely and he's suggesting that there is a fourth box style that is just like the first Bangor Punta box (solid silver line) only without the mention of Bangor Punta. Be interesting to see that.

Tim

Unknown / guest 14 Aug 2011

#15

Thomas,

Thanks for the reply.

Do you think the box changes coicided with the model changes? The few times I've seen a first gen box, it had the older style smaller cuffs with the detents moved over to the center.

Tim

TMoreCromwell 17 Aug 2011

#16

Tim,

Yes. But, as I state above, I'm only guessing at this.

Thomas

TMoreCromwell 17 Aug 2011

#17

To be clear, I think the box changes coincides with the new model designations, but not, at least initially, with the moving of the detent under the keyhole. I have seen an example of a second generation box that had cuffs with the detent toward the center (I'm almost certain the cuffs belonged to that box). Did the change take place Pre-Bangor in the early 1960's? Perhaps, although I would be interested to know if anyone has some second generation boxes with the detent under the keyhole? As stated above, I know by 1968 the detent had been moved. If all the second generation boxes have cuffs like the early edition of the 1950's, then that would narrow down the time frame for the detent move between 1966-1968.
Thomas

GB68 17 Aug 2011

#18

I recived the smith & wesson brochure today and its in great shape It is stamped Aug 1956 in the corner and on the back printed in 10-55 The picture in the ebay add looks green but this brochure is off white with no marks or rips.

dltvette 18 Aug 2011

#19

Tim,
The Standard Catalog of Smit & Wesson 3rd Edition states,Bangor Punta was the parent company for Smith & Wesson from 1965 - 1987. Expanded into many police market items in addition to handguns.
Dave

Unknown / guest 18 Aug 2011

#20

Quote: Re: Smith and Wesson history question August 14 2011, 1:50 AM
Justin,
I agree and those are the only three I knew of, but read Thomas's reply very closely and he's suggesting that there is a fourth box style that is just like the first Bangor Punta box (solid silver line) only without the mention of Bangor Punta. Be interesting to see that.
Tim

Tim,
My Guatemala marked Model 91 are in a solid silver border box with Smith & Wesson, Inc. Springfield, Mass. (does not have A Bangor Punta Company marking).
Not sure I can post photo here. I do not use photobucket.
Dave

Blackburn 18 Aug 2011

#21

email me a photo and i will gladly post it for you.

Blackburn 18 Aug 2011

#22

Here are dave's photos

TMoreCromwell 18 Aug 2011

#23

Thanks for the picture of the second generation handcuff box.

Dave, I think the date of Bangor Punta control (1965-1987) is incorrect. On page 394 in the same 3rd ed. Standard Catalog they note that Lear Siegler purchased S&W on Feb 24, 1984. My understanding is that BP became defunct at that time and that LS had control until Dec. 1986.
Thomas

Blackburn 18 Aug 2011

#24

Justin,

I'm not sure if this would help the claification of S&W handcuff boses, but you can post them if you think they will.

1st photo: I put the early boxes in 5 classifications (not sure if in correct order):

1. S&W logo only centered on top.

2. Solid line border, S&W logo top left, Smith & Wesson Inc. / Springfield, Mass. (2 lines)

3. Solid line border, S&W logo top left, Smith & Wesson Inc. / A Bangor Punta Company /

Springfield, Mass. (3 lines)

4. Hash line border, S&W logo top left, Smith & Wesson Inc. / A Bangor Punta Company /

Springfield, Mass. (3 lines), end box printed with model number & finish.

5. Hash line border, S&W logo top left, Smith & Wesson Inc. / A Bangor Punta Company /

Springfield, Mass. (3 lines), end paper label glued on upside down with model number

and finish.

2nd photo: showing the end box labels.

3rd photo: early boxes showing color variation and modern box variations.

These are what I have, not saying there arn't other variations out there.

Dave

Justin,

I for got to include this photo of the sides of the modern boxes I have.

Dave

Blackburn 18 Aug 2011

#25

Thanks Dave

dltvette 18 Aug 2011

#26

Thomas,
There is some confusion about in the 3rd edition about who owened S&W at this time period. My understanding is, Bangor Punta bought the company from the Wesson family in 1965. In Jan 1984 the Lear Siegler Corp. purchased Bangor Punta (along with S&W). In Dec 1986 Lear Siegler was sold to Forstmann Little Holding Company. Forstmann split off S&W and sold it shortly thereafter (1987)to Thomkins PLC of London. In 2001 S&W was purchased by Saf-T-Hammer Corp. Back to be American owned again.
I could be mistaken though.
Dave

TMoreCromwell 19 Aug 2011

#27

Dave and Justin, thanks so much for posting the pictures!

I would add two more box examples:
(1) The Long Box (c.1981-1982). It was a long, flat box with a plastic tray inside. The top had the repeating "Handcuffs" and the bottom right corner had Smith & Wesson and underneath that in smaller letters "a BANGOR PUNTA Company". The cuffs were the 'PAT'S PENDING' and had the double-lock slot on one side only from Springfield, Mass.

(2) The Lear Siegler Box (c.1984-1986). This had only the repeating "Handcuffs" on the top, but on the side had a big Lear Siegler logo, and to the right of that the words Smith & Wesson with what appears to be (the picture that I have is not clear enough) "A Lear Siegler Company" underneath in small letters.

Dave, those are the ownership dates that I have as well. It is a bit strange though that while Jan 1984 is often cited as the date for the Lear Siegler purchase, the Standard Catalog would be so precise with its Feb. 24 date.

Tim, BTW, on page 33 of the Standard Catalog (3rd edition) it states, "1957-1966. Blue Two-Piece Box: Possibly introduced to coincide with the advent of Model numbering for the S&W product range. These have the S&W logo top left of the lid, the address on the bottom right side and a solid silver line aroung the entire edge." So it does look like this was when the second generation box was introduced.

Thomas

tim71 19 Aug 2011

#28

Dave,

Thanks so much for making me realize how much more work I have to do on my S&W collection! Seriously, I'm enjoying the pics and thanks a ton for posting them.

I notice the early 91 box is a center detent style. So now if we can get an example of a "hi polish" box that would really help.

Tim

GrahamChatfield 19 Aug 2011

#29

If I may add some of my own observances... Box #4, dark blue printed on end with model number OR with paper label right side up or upside down. And Box #5, bright blue, paper label upside down only.

dltvette 20 Aug 2011

#30

Thomas,
I do not have either of the boxes you mentioned above. I will have to be on the look-out for them.
I do have Lead Chains, model 820 with 2 Model 90 cuffs & 830 with 1 Model 90 cuff that were shipped in gun boxes. Both have 5' long chains. It was eaiser to put in a gun box than to make new handcuff boxes to hold them.
I have Model 110 large size handcuffs, Model 1800 Belly Chains & Model 1840 Waist Chains shipped in leg iron boxes with one end having a glued on label stating the correct model inclosed. The other end of box is printed Smith & Wesson Leg Irons.
The Model 1850 Transport Chain was shipped in a plain brown 1 piece box with a glued-on end label on one end.
Once again easier & cheeper to put in existing leg iron boxes and glue-on a new label on one end than to have new boxes made. They are interested in making profit and not pleasing collectors.

Graham,
I don't have any two-piece boxes with glued-on end labels that are right side up. The ones that are were probably a mistake. My understanding is that they stored their guns and handcuffs upside-down on the shelves so when they grabbed them to take them off the shelf, the bottom of the box was up and would not fall to the floor damaging the contents. With the labels upside-down it could easily be read when searching for a product.

Dave

GrahamChatfield 20 Aug 2011

#31

It could also be that the right-side-up labels could have been re-stuck on by whomever had them before me.

tim71 04 Sep 2011

#32

Thomas,

Look at the above photo and you'll see that the ceter detent model above is indeed a model 91 (according to the box) and comes in the 2nd style of box.

Here's a question the, did the style changover occur after Bangor took over?

If that above box is correct - and there's no reason to assume it's not - then any of the later model cuffs in people's collections that are assumed to be a "high polish" variant, are not that at all.

This shows that the 91 came before the model switch over, so something has to give. Either they high polish and the 91 co-existed for a while, or some of these cuffs in collections are something else besides a high polish.

Since the 91 obviously had a lot of prep work to get that mirror finish, maybe they just buffed some regular finish 90s and sold them as high polish.

I don't know but one of the "facts" has to give. Look at this pic in Justin's site:

Justin knows his stuff on the modern cuffs so I have no reason to doubt this being a high polish but it's clearly a later model.

That's all I'm saying is that not all of this can be right.

I sure wished you could find out from Smith and Wesson the date of manufacture the same way you can with Peerless.

Unresolved image reference ↗

Unknown / guest 04 Sep 2011

#33

Let's try this again, here's Justin's high polish page:

Tim

TMoreCromwell 04 Sep 2011

#34

Tim,
In regards to the detent move, the only cuffs that I have seen with the second generation box (90 and 91) have had the detent towards the center. But I stress I've seen very few cuffs original to the second generation box. I think the detent move could have been when Bangor Punta took over (I don't recall ever seeing any Bangor Punta cuffs with the detent toward the center) or it could have happend at some point before BP took over (c.1961-1965). I really don't know. I think the range for the change might be c.1961-1968? Again, as I asked previously, does anybody have a second generation box with cuffs that have the detent under the keyhole?

I'm assuming Justin doesn't have the box that came with his polished cuff? Is there any chance this could simply be an off Model 91? Could it be a cuff produced for some special group/agency that was not sold in the marketplace (and hence not in the catalogs or brochures)? Otherwise, I would have no answer for it.

I too wish S&W had something similar to what Peerless can do. Maybe it is up to us.

Thomas

Anonymous 05 Sep 2011

#35

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smith-Wesson- ... 336b83ff17

Anonymous 05 Sep 2011

#36

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smith-and-Wes ... 3cbbc49188

Anonymous 05 Sep 2011

#37

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Antiq ... 1e66a22c05

Anonymous 05 Sep 2011

#38

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PEERLESS-model- ... 19c88f60ce