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Restoration Advice

34 visible archived posts · 34 preserved total · topic ID 4301

dltvette 09 Sep 2011

I have been offered this County Jail door and am seeking advice on restoring it, sandblasting, paint color etc. No experience in this area so any advice is welcome.
Trying photobucket, hope it works
Dave

Anonymous 09 Sep 2011

Sorry, can't figure out how to post photo.
Dave

tim71 09 Sep 2011

Yeah, it's not real easy to figure out the pic thing. Basically, the photobuck thing is just link. Make a photobuck account, load your photos to that, then on the page of your photo you just left click on the line in the box that says direct html or something like that and it will show "copied" in the text box. Then you come back to the org, make a post and right click and hit paste.

Hope this helps.

dltvette 09 Sep 2011

Maybe this will work.
Dave

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Paul davies 09 Sep 2011

Dave,
Nice Door - leave it as is. Looks great. There's nothing worse than an over-restored item.
I have a nice wooden one from the mid 1800's with different colored coats of paint, black, white, cream and blue - but mainly blue.
If you have to stabilize the rust, test a few different treatments. Some will turn the rust black (my preference), some will etch the metal back to silver.
Then you can use Dubbin which is used on saddles etc a clear soft oily wax if need be.
Good luck
Paul

dltvette 09 Sep 2011

Thanks Paul, I wasn't sure if I wanted to make it look new because I kind of like the old rust look. When I get it home I will inspect it better.
Dave

Tom Gross 09 Sep 2011

Cool door! That's going to be a nice piece.

First, remove the lock and restore that separately. More on this later. As to the door, don't sandblast. It leaves a really shiny, phony texture. Also, don't use Naval Jelly, as that damages the surface of the metal. Take your time. To remove the paint and rust first use paint stripper and coarse steel wool. Then WD-40 and coarse steel wool. Then maybe medium grit sandpaper. You can evaluate the project at each stage and decide where you want to go.

Do you really need to paint it? That's up to you. Do you want to restore it as it was, maybe with that crappy, green, ugly, institutional color? I think that just the bare iron of this door would look spectacular, even if some patches of it show pitting.

You're very lucky to have this item. Good luck.

joe tanner 10 Sep 2011

------- lol ---- we all have advise...depending on what you want the door to look like when you are done - depends on what you may want to do.... if the paint is THICK - use paint remover solvent -- apply - let sit for 30 -40 miutes -- apply some more - let stand for 30 more minutes -- SCRUB off with a HARD - NYLON - BRISTLE brush or scrap off -- repeat if you need to..... the surface under the paint may be nice & smooth & the rest of the door may have rusty spots -- if so - USE -- NAVAL JELLY RUST REMOVER (PINK BOTTLE) & don't be afraid to use it -- let sit for 10 minutes & scrub & wash spraying with a garden hose.... YES, it does take away some of the metal (a very very very minut little thou) but isn't that what you want to do -- YES, it is as you want to get rid of surfaces that will continue to tust & eat away.... if you do not -- then you paint the surface etc etc -- the UNDERNEATH SURFACE - CONTINUES - to deteriorate....once you get the surface to how you want it so to speak --- paint it ??? or get a few quarts of engine motor oil -- pour it & spread all over the door -- let it bake in sun for a couple of days & depending on the metal etc - when you wipe dry most of it off -- you should have a very very nice aged look to it....then to finish it off -- spray W-D 40 all over the door -- stand the door up for a day -- then wipe dry...then after another day - it should not have the OILY feel ......joe

Dave 10 Sep 2011

Thanks for all the great information. Keep it coming. I should have it home by Sunday and will probably ask more questions. The locks are YALE, the inside is green. I will take some close-up pictures of locks, window door & bars, etc.
Dave

dltvette 11 Sep 2011

#10

More pictures before I brought it home.
Front & back of door.
Dave

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dltvette 11 Sep 2011

#11

Locks. Note number on inside of door at back of dead bolt lock.
Dave

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Unknown / guest 11 Sep 2011

#12

Hinges. Any advise on part of hinge and what it looked like taht returned to the steel jamb. This part was torched off. Also best way to free up hinge other than WD-40.
Dave

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Unknown / guest 11 Sep 2011

#13

I have decided not to restore the door, just clean it up and leave the old rusty look. I do want to get the locks working and the hinges repaired. I have a friend who is a locksmith, haven't told him about the door yet, but hope he can help. Any suggestions here are totally welcomed.
Can anyone date this door by the photo's?
I was told by the person I aquired it from that it was taken out during a remodel of the jail around 1960-70.
Thanks for looking & information supplied,
Dave

ChuckII 11 Sep 2011

#14

I'd love to find a real jail door, but the ones I find on ebay usually aren't shipped by the sellers. Any suggestions?

Thanks, ~Chuck

dltvette 11 Sep 2011

#15

Chuck,
I just happened on an estate sale and the wife wanted her husband to get rid of it. He had it for 20 years and his mother had it in her garage before he took it. This is the first one I have ever seen one. I wasn't looking for one but he was going to take it and scrap it if he didn't get rid of it. I take it that his wife told him to scrap it for the price of metal or she was going to scrap him. I could'n bare to see it go to the scrap pile.
Dave

Tom Gross 12 Sep 2011

#16

Just a couple of quick observations. I don't think that this was a cell door. I think it far more likely that it was some kind of exterior door which was not generally accessible to prisoners, perhaps the exterior door to a guard tower. Note the keyholes on both sides of the door. Also note how rusted is one side (the exterior side), and how the other side (inside and protected from the weather) is almost pristine.

It's still a great item.

Paul Davies 12 Sep 2011

#17

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Here's a link to the same type of door that I have, same prison as well, except mine is painted and i intend to leave it that way.
The wooden doors have a lot more charm - if you can say that about a prison door!
Good luck with your partial restoration.
Paul

dltvette 12 Sep 2011

#18

Tom,
I tend to agree with you that it is not a jail "cell" door, after I saw the keyway on both sides of the door, but just having a jail door is exciting to me.
I had my locksmith friend look at the main lock and he said the 4 corner pins / bolts of the lock case had to be drilled out in order to get inside the lock to make a key and get it to function again. There are no slots visable to remove the pins / bolts, whatever they are. I'm not to thrilled about that process. I was just wondering if there is another solution available.
Dave

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Tom Gross 12 Sep 2011

#19

David, hi! I'm glad that you are getting some expert advice on the lock matter. If he says it has to be drilled, that's pretty determinative. When reinstalling you could put bolts through the old holes (in lock case and door) and fasten them with cap nuts. That wouldn't look bad at all. Not original, I know, but what else can you do? You sure don't want to weld the lock case back in place, in case future repairs are needed.

Concerning the little viewing door, when open can it be lifted off of the hinge pins? Maybe, when the door is open, you can tap the bottom with a rubber mallet and the door might just lift off. This would facilitate restoration.

Also, I noticed some extra holes in the two plates which hold the bars in place. Do you intend to replace those missing bars, or leave it like it is?

Best wishes,

Tom Gross

dltvette 12 Sep 2011

#20

Tom,
The door probably could be removed if the pin going through the hinge can be removed, otherwise no, hinge is pinned/bolted on as the lockcase is. (see photos).
According to the seller, when his mother got it, the bars were as they are now. It doesn't appear that any bars were welded in tose holes. I don't have an answer for that yet.
Dave

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LK 12 Sep 2011

#21

HAVE U CHECKED WITH YALE ABOUT IT , I BET THE # 538 SCRATCHED IN WAS DONE BY A GUARD SO HE KNEW WHAT KEY TO USE AT THAT PLACE, ALSO BELEAVE THE 4 SCREWS ARE COUNTERSUNK HEADED SO USE A MUCH SMALLER DRILL THEN THEM!!

LK D~D

dltvette 12 Sep 2011

#22

LK,
I have not varified yet that the door is from where the seller said it came out of. A retired police officer friend of mine is helping me on this. Once I varify the facility I planed on contacting Yale Co. I'm not drillilng out anything until I eliminate all other options.
Dave

LK 12 Sep 2011

#23

is THE gun port lock also accessiable for a key from both sides??

LK D~D

dltvette 12 Sep 2011

#24

LK,
No it is not. See 2nd photo in this thread.
This appears to have been added at a later date. Newer lock and you can see where riveted plate was cut to install lock.
Dave

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Edgeplay_Cgo 12 Sep 2011

#25

That lock on the viewport door is a cheap hardware store item that we used to call a Night Latch. It was typically used on the inside of a residential door, but it could be made one-sided, by the expedient of throwing the other cylinder away. It's prime virtue is that it is a slam lock. With the bolt out, the door is locked by closing it. Its abysmal lack of security is balanced by the fact that one cannot squeeze through the barred window.

LK 12 Sep 2011

#26

THAT IS A PUZZLER, U WOULDN'T OPEN THE DOOOR TO OPEN THE PORT DOOR! COULD IT HAVE BEEN A SOLAITAIRY
CONFINDMENT DOOR ???

dltvette 13 Sep 2011

#27

LK, Tom & others,
I am totally confused now. I said I agreed with Tom about this not being a cell door because of the keyway on both sides of the door, and it was likly to be an exterior door as he suggested because of the rusty exterior side of the door & the paint basically intact on the interior side. But why would the port door be on the exterior side of the door. The person inside (considering this is a passageway door & not a cell door) would need to view who wanted in, not the other way around. Can someone explain this? I can see this as an interior corridor type door dividing two secure corridors, but am now confused about it being an exterior door.
Dave

LK 13 Sep 2011

#28

TO PICK THE WINDOW LOCK BY GOING BEHIND THE TONGUE OF THE LATCH , LOOKS LIKE THERE IS A WIDE GAP THERE, PUSH IT TOWARDS THE LOCK

LK D~D

Tom Gross 13 Sep 2011

#29

I think we agree, by virtue of the keyholes on both sides, that this door could not have been used in a high security section of the jail or prison, and was probably located somewhere not ordinarily accessible to prisoners. And because of the rust, I believe it was an exterior door, and possibly to a guard tower. Assuming that only guards/officers had access to the door, maybe the viewing window (gun port, whatever you want to call it) was only a matter of convenience. Things could be passed from one guard to another (keys, duty rosters, doughnuts, etc.) without breaching overall security by opening the full door.

We must not assume that the viewing window and the bars were put on the door at the same time. If not, the window had to be there first. Perhaps there was a security evaluation and the window was observed to be a weak point, and bars were ordered installed. This would explain the alarm wires on the sides of the bars. I would guess that the overall age of the door far pre-dates this technology. And this might also explain the extra holes in the panels holding the bars. These panels might have been scrap pieces laying around in the maintenance department and the original holes were not suitable for some reason.

On the issue of whether the viewing window opens on the "right" or the "wrong" side of the door, there was another possibility which occurred to me, and which might be the most realistic explanation of all. The warden might have ordered that a viewing window be put in the door. And whoever was assigned to do the job simply installed it so that it opened the wrong way. And also installed that crappy "night latch". (Did you ever see that Farside cartoon which showed Satan and a workman standing at the gates of Hell. Over the doorway are the numbers "999", and Satan is looking very annoyed. The caption is the workman saying, "Well, golleee! I musta been holdin' this work order upside down!")

But all we're really left with is "maybe this" or "maybe that". Isn't it best for you to just enjoy the door as a great artifact?

Vince 14 Sep 2011

#30

Hello,

After looking at the photos some things became readily evident. First the lock itself is smaller / lighter construction for high or maximum security usage. Based upon the pictures the lock seems from about the late 1800's or very early 1900's and this would make sense from the standpoint of a partial Yale catalog reprint from the early 1900's

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-- Lever tumbler deadbolt locks No. 4117 and No. 4118

Adapted for use on swinging plate or grated corridor or cell doors. Lock number 4117 operates from one side. Number 4118 by key from both sides. Each lock is made for a specific hand of door. The lock case measures 3 3/4" x 5 3/4" x 1 1/2" thick and is made of Malleable iron, Japanned. The bolt is made of Bronze with three hardened steel pins inserted in the bolt. The bolt projects when unlocked 11/16". Five bronze tumblers.

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As for the other ("night latch") lock on the view port, While yale did make such light duty latch locks for prison use, this one seems even lighter still. However the one thing that confounds me is the lack of fasteners for mounting of the port mounted slam-latch. On a side note the very early yale night latches had 2 very small screws on the latch side - remove those screws and the lock body simply releases from the backer plate underneath. However it's impossible to see this angle from your photos. Also the lock face has relative little wear (gouging) around the plug-face.

The pristine (prison-tine) side of the door would most likly have been on the side (most) exposed to inmates due to the fact that the lock-body is ALMOST ALWAYS mounted on the "secure" (more secure) side of the door as to prevent/limit tampering as well the painted side's lock face has little use compared to the "rust" side's lock face. The bars that are mounted on this side are called "Double Ribbed Hardened Bars" originally used by the Pauly Jail Building Co. Of St Louis Mo. While they were the first to have employed them, by the late 1800's they were by far not the only manufacturer - so it is not definitive as to the maker of the door. I am at a loss as to the additional 3 holes in the angle iron, but they do seem too large diameter for normal bars themselves.

If you wish to make / have made key(s), The rim lock looks like a standard Y1 keyway and if not easily dissasembled, could be impressioned quite easily (your Locksmith friend should be able to do this in about 10 minutes). As for the main door lock, it TOO can be impressioned, However blanks must be handmade, and due to the fact that it has been sitting around soooooooooooo long, the original grease is probably around the viscosity of roofing tar - a situation making the impressioning technique virtually impossible. The best bet if you want a working key is to (very carefully) drill out the flush rivets holding the lock to the door. Be careful as the flush rivets are hour-glass shaped so a 1/4" bit followed by a slightly larger diameter bit, followed by a "step bit drill" should make quick work of removal, replacement mounting to the door can be accomplished with large diameter "sex-bolts & sex nuts" (((PLEASE DON'T ASK WHY THEY'RE CALLED THAT!))) As for the lock once it's in hand flathead screws would normally secure the case to the lock body. After cover is removed, scratchmark all tumblers, spacers and any other part that could be re-assembled out of order. Yes you're looking at about a full day's worth of work to professionally make a key, BUT you must keep in mind one thing: These locks were purpously designed to resist against taking them apart and or crafting working keys, much more so than your front door and it's Kwikset knoblock.

Hope this helps,
Best,
--Vince

PS. The door lock's key would have had a "tre-foil" shaped head (if you're a purist).

Vince 14 Sep 2011

#31

What I forgot to mention earlier, is I believe the painted side is the "outside" (the inmate side) if you will, and the rusty side is the "inside" (the guard side).

vince 14 Sep 2011

#32

Another clue that the rusty side saw little exposure to inmates is that this side's pull handle has the exposed fasteners & from the allen head screws, they were added later probably 40's or so.

dltvette 16 Sep 2011

#33

Vince,
Thanks for all the great information.
I was told this came out of a county jail, so not sure about the security level of doors they used.

Re: Lock Case:
The lock case is 5 3/4" long x 3 3/4" high x 1 11/16" deep (including the cover plate). There are also 2 rectangular flat bars between the lock case & the door; 1 on top, left of the lock & 1 on bottom, right of the lock. See attached photos:

Re: Night Latch:
These are the only screws I can find on the night latch lock case:

Re: Bars & extra holes:
The installed bars, not including the attached small rod are .92" in diameter. With the attached small rod they are 1.13" in diameter.
The empty holes are 1.20" in diameter.

Tom, thans for your information. I liked the explanation of the pass-thru door. I am very excited about the found great artifact, but I am also curious about it's function in the jail.

Dave

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Unknown / guest 23 Sep 2011

#34

Tom, I am now convinced it is an exterior door. I found this searching old jails & prisions. Here is a photo of the Williamson County Jail 1888.
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