What makes a high security cuff?

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Greetings, Tim:

Though I've never actually tried this, I learned through security sources that the model 94 could also be compromised by a prisoner gnawing on a plastic cigar tip, thus fashioning a crude key of sorts.

All in all, I'd say that the model 104 was a definite improvement over the 94, without going to the extreme of pin tumblers, etc.






Regards,
Jason

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi Tim, I hope this might be of some interest to you.
The S&W Patent describes a warded keyhole and special recessed pawl. #4,574,600. The bitt or flag of the key has a ward cut (slot) in it to pass over and around the ward (projection protruding into the cavity of the lock by the keyhole bushing)
However the pawl that is used is the standard pawl and doesnt have the recessed leading edge where the bitt touched it.

In the drawing above, if the pawl had the recess, then only the section of the bit adjacent the ward in the key would touch and therefore lift the pawl. Any wire type tool would have to be bent to pass around the ward and likely to be too weak at the point required to lift the pawl.

This drawing represents what the cuff looks like as sold and if the section adjacent the ward cut is removed, the key will still work, also any wire type tool only needs a L bend in the end to touch and lift it.

Ian

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Thanks Ian. That is very interesting that they didn't take the necessary steps to make the cuff really secure.

Tim

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Greetings and salutations, Ian!

Earlier I performed a Google Patent Search on the aforementioned, and yes -- the omission of that small rectangular section on the pawl's posterior makes a world of difference.

Is this the case throughout the entire lengthy production run of the 104s? Could it be that S&W omitted this recently to (not) cut corners in a global recession? Perhaps they substituted a model 100 pawl to reduce production costs. If so, for shame. Officer's and the public's safety should be of the utmost importance, and should not be compromised for the sake of profit. What's worse is that this could lead to a false sense of security for all concerned.



Regards,
Jason

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi Jason, I have never see a S&W 104 as it should be in the patent. The only thing that offers security in the 104 is the smaller keyhole and that a standard key won't fit. I guess this would be enough for S&W to say it meets the High security requirement but to me it is missleading if someone was to except the patent idea as their bench mark.
Many of the escape artists I know pick this cuff but some probably don't know the real reason.

For that reason, the cuff should be changed as people will always put their pick in the hole and try, and with this oversight, they will succeed.

Ian

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

What you don't see in the drawings is that they made some changes and you would need to see one taken apart or better drawing. The spring and paw are the same, the key hole is different as already mentioned. What they changed was the bit of the key is larger as the bottom of the keyhole doesn't end with the lock case but goes deeper. So even if you had a key to fit the key way and cut to the right height, it won't unlock the lock unless it has that slit next to the barrel. This is done so that in order to pick it open, the pick would need to be able to go down and back up behind the gate. Take a look at a standard S&W key and then the 104 key and compare the the lenght of the bit along the barrel.

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi Dorson, I think you might have missed something in the translation.

The patent drawing is not accurate to what is in the cuff; mainly the pawl.
you don't need a pick that is shaped to simulate the ward cut key. You just need an 'L' shaped pick.

Ian

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

I have spare 104 keys, so I ground off the upper part of the flag of one 104 key, where it extends above the slit. The modified key looks like the one in the lower drawing of Ian's post of Dec 26th. The modified key still opened 104 cuffs perfectly, and also released the double lock perfectly. So the normal S&W 104 key, with the slit and upper part of the flag, seems unnecessarily complex, and does seem to give an exaggerated impression of security. Its puzzling why S&W would have spent the extra effort to make the more complex key, when it doesn't actually do anything.

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi, thanks for trying it Andrew. I will try to modify a pawl today to what it should be in the patent drawing. I suspect that the tip of the key adjacent the ward cut will bend or twist making it difficult or impossible to get out of the keyhole.

let you know soon.

Ian

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi, I modified a pawl so it was like the patent. Then I realised, two pawls of both left and right hand would be required for a pair!! I guess this is another factor why S&W dont do it.

I assembled the cuff and tried the key about 50 times (I turned the key with fingertips only and stopped when the pawl bottomed out on the casing) the key was not damaged.

I then added a bit more torque to the key when it bottomed out to try to replicate what it might be like if the key holder was in a rush or while the key was fully turned, the person wearing the cuff moved.
The readily bent enough to make it difficult to get the key out and if the key was used for a second time under the same manner, it would have bent to the point where it wouldn't come out.

Ian
(See photos, camera flash isn't working well, after being frozen in Duluth recently)

?t=1325121348

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Thanks Ian for the lesson on the 104s, all this time I assumed that the keyhole bushing (rotational ward) extended far enough into the lock body to actually acomplish something. In the past I have been succesful in picking them, albiet taking a few seconds longer in compared to any cuff costing half the price. As I only have 2 pairs of the 104's, pulling them apart wasn't something I planned on doing. With this in mind, It seems to me that the only thing that makes them "higher" security, is the use of non standard keys. I'm sure the good folks at S&W wanted people to "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain", meaning if you are told they are "High security", then that's exactly what they must be - and don't question otherwise!!!

Happy new year,
--Vince

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Ian, thanks for explaining it as I did misunderstand and we were both right. I took apart the internals of my 104's as I had a pretty good idea what I was talking about and when I get a chance will take pictures. It was a good thing too as I found an extra pin floating around that goes under the double lock to support the area that prevents the spring from deforming. I was also right in the bottom of the barrel of the key penetrates to the other side of the lock case.

-Dorson

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Makes me wonder how quality the steel is that's used in keys. Seems a shame you couldn't make use of the design as intended.

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi Tim, no matter the quality of the steel , when the section is so small it will either bend if softer or break due to hardness.

Ian

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi Tim, why not ask JG?....Sorry, couldn't resist!. Loving that 'other' thread.

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

I too am loving the other thread but I don't think he would keep to the subject and answer the question.

Ian

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

I feel kind of cheated by S&W over their 104 cuffs, whose security seems now to have been exaggerated. Maybe S&W gave up too easily on their idea? If I understand correctly, Ian used the modified 104 key 50 times and only found problems (key bending) when extra torque was applied. If stronger metal for the key is not possible, maybe a fix would be to incorporate a mechanical stop to prevent over-torquing the key? I also think that its reasonable to expect a key to a high security lock to be more delicate than a simple lock. Meanwhile, I now have more respect than ever for Towers, as a high security cuff. But even they would be better, if the levers were more closely manufactured.

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

I was thinking about this post and come to the conclusion that it still wouldn't work like its supposed to with the special key, but it would help if S&W did a 3 pawl rachet instead of the standard single. Any thoughts on this?

I've thought this over many times. I've heard many people when talking about various cuffs like the Goncz or the Gotchas claim that they would be easy to get out of with a lighter or with this or that. The old Wesson 94 cuffs supposedly could be thwarted with a pen barrel and a lighter as well.

Here's something that occured to me. In order to escape from any of these and prove it's possible, you should have to use something a criminal might be able to conceal. Let's face it, if a person can get a lighter and heat a pen barrel up, then somebody isn't doing their job. Also, if an escape artist were to be arrested, then I doubt the police would allow them to keep their supply of picks and tools.

See what I mean here? If anything goes, then a good old pair of bolt cutters would make short work out of any design as well.

Just some observations brought on by my new aquisition of my first pair of 94s and the whole pen barrel story.

Tim

Click to expand...

I would say that would make it higher security. As it is right now, I'd still call it improved security because the bushing and smaller keyhole would make it significantly harder for a non-professional to pick the lock. m-100s are easily picked by a hair pin but I'd say it would be harder to fit something like that in the keyhole.

Tim