Real Guiteau?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Do the people who likely never plan on bidding themselves constantly consider it their sacred duty to "tip off" everyone else to something rare?

Let people find the cool auction items on their own and let the people who find them have a better chance without spilling the beans for everyone to see.

This is B.S. that happens over and over again.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

I was was just wondering if it could be an original or if it looked like a repro that's all.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

It's a repro, and in awful condition.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Hello,
ich have compared the pictures with my Guiteau reproduction from Ian McColl.
http://www.andys-handschellensammlung.d ... uiteau.htm
Every detail is exactly the same, the swivel has the same shape, edges of bars and lock cases are the same and also the fastening of the swivel. But i cannot compare the absolut dimension of it because there is no item with given size (e.g. a coin, a bill or a ruler) in the picture. But how is it possible to let it be so rusty in a few years? Special acids, salt water?

BEst regards
Andy58

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

All three of the cuffs listed by the seller look like they have they are in the same condition, amount of patina, rust clogged key way, etc. This makes me believe they have been stored together for a long time. Hopefully Ian will comment on the Guiteau. The Lilly is missing the plug and is an open hole. You can just see it in the picture and was verified by the seller.

Ron

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

A few things are for sure, if they are the real deal, they are frozen up beyond belief due to where they're stored for years. Also the one side has a decent gap which you can assure means that it will just pull apart. Such a shame.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

I have I ever told viewers at this forum how I hate anon message posters.

Ian

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

I too was wondering what details you found that indicates that this is not a real one.
I think this one might have fooled me.

ds

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Ian's Guiteau looks like the wrist openings are more oval to me than the one up for auction. Also his square lock housing the key goes into looks shorter to me. I'm not saying the one on ebay is real, just different than Ian's. (to my eyes anyways)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

That's going to be an expensive wall hanger

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Following several private emails regarding the above handcuffs on ebay here are the facts:

Over the years as far as I know there have only been two different models of the above handcuffs reproduced - I made up 6 sets back in the mid 1980's and Ian McColls pattern that he made more recently (not too sure how many he made?).

The originals:

Weight 1.075kgm
Length 28cm
Width of lock case 2.1cm
Hinge 3 piece
Construction - cast/wrought steel
Key two in one type with spring in lockcase to push the outter barrel down.

Ians Copy:

Weight 0.765kgm
Length 26cm
Width of lock case 1.8cm
Hinge 3 piece
Construction cast/wrought steel
Key two in one type no spring in lockcase

My copy

Weight 1.45kgms
Length 28.5cm
Width of lock case 2.2cm
Hinge 2 piece
Construction Cast Bronze Nickel plated
Key complex two in one with square centre and spring to retain inner barrel.

So in my opinion the above set on ebay are genuine! However, seems we have some very knowledgable Anon contributors!!

Happy Bidding!!

Chris Gower

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

A friend asked my opinion about this matter and I gave it. I might as well just post the relevant part of the message which I sent to such person.


The photos are pretty rudimentary. I suspect that the seller is being bombarded by requests for more photos, so more information might become available in the near future. The Guiteau is one of 4 sets of handcuffs being sold by this seller. The others are a Lilly, a Providence Tool Co. darby, and a standard model Plug-8, without the plug. The Providence Tool Co. and the Plug-8 are positively genuine. My first impression is that the Guiteau and the Lilly are also, but that is based partly on circumstantial evidence;

1. The seller has feedback of over 4,000, and lots of other open auctions, including mainly collectible watches and old radios and old repair manuals for radios and turntables. The seller is obviously a classic "picker" (without meaning any derogatory implication).

2. The seller does not know, or purport to know, anything about handcuffs. Note that the auction descriptions of all 4 sets of handcuffs is identical. These shackles are not being treated as anything special; nothing more than ordinary merchandise found at an estate sale. You can usually expect for phony items to have a much higher profile.

3. The seller is located in the American Northeast, where all but the Plug-8s were made.

4. All 4 items have traces of new, reddish rust, and this surface patina is similar on all 4 items. Red rust is aways a red flag (no pun intended) to me, but this surface rust looks like it is on top of what could be a legitimate patina, not over bare metal. It looks as if all 4 items had been hanging, side by side, in a damp basement or a barn for a matter of months up to a couple of years. This fits in with the scenario of an old collector who lost interest, or who got sick and could no longer maintain his collection. Or heirs who failed to appreciate the value of old iron curiosities.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

referring to the last poster. 4 paragraphs to say nothing. quite interesting

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Hi, I like the idea that when you are very very wrong and your opinion is so out of whack with any reasonable research or information, that it is best to put your name as ANON. and not leave any contact details so anyone can let you know directly.
I was having a conversation with another collector about the ANON posters, he believes most anon posters talk down something to stops bids getting high or put people off bidding all together.
My thoughts were that these people weren't the type to be bidding anyway, either no money or no real interest! It appears to me that their lack of knowledge still doesn't put them off just having to make opinion. They are the type of person that just likes to shout out stuff (no rhyme no reason). By reminding anon there is no come back to their useless and none helpful postings. As I have said before, there is no credibility to anon poster opinions and thoughts and should be banned.

Personally I don't think there is a need to authenticate this cuff. There are those who wish to bid becasue they beleiev it to be the real deal. They will bid. For most they won't be bidding so why would they need to be told if it's real, as collectors, they should already know.

Ian

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Ian , does this mean that you hate me and that I should be banned?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Tom, I agree with you in regards to these cuffs. Profiling the seller is a big help in figuring out what you are bidding on. I reached the same conclusions based on several of your points when it first came up for sale.

Ian, don't let the annon posters get to you.....their opinions don't matter, so give them no thought or attention.

It is going to be a long 4 & 1/2 days........like counting down to Christmas! Can't wait to see who wins them and how much they will fetch!

Mike

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

You are WRONG!!! ALL collectors don't know everything. If they did, they wouldn't need to come here anymore.

Sometimes anon posters are very knowledgeable about cuffs but have a stupid question to as and are embarrassed to ask.
This happens to me. I don't know it all but I know a lot. If I should know the answer about a certain cuff and do not, I don't feel like getting ridiculed by the people here, so I can be an idiot anon and no one gets their feeling hurt.

People are jealous, ignorant and cruel sometimes on this site. If I want to ask a question and hide under the anon umbrella, I don't care what the people think or say this way.

Anon does serve a purpose.

You are WRONG!!! ALL collectors don't know everything. If they did, they wouldn't need to come here anymore. We all come here to learn.

anon

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Wouldnt it be better if all the anons were to give themselves each a number or a series of letters ( lets call it a name). That way, we, the collectors who are known and their personal history and knowledge base can be traced can identify those who due to lack of self esteem, person pride, lack of self respect and full of embarrassment for their own stupidity
Quote If I want to ask a question and hide under the anon umbrella, I don't care what the people think or say this way. Seek professional help, you have a problems if you were under the age of 18 and had no life skills (having been around long enough to learn, then I might be a bit forgiving. If not, grow up and act like an adult.
Quote have a stupid question to as(k) and are embarrassed to ask.
This happens to me. Get over it!!!! If you know the question is stupid why ask it?????????? If you were to let yourself be known and have a valid email address, there are those who care, who might assist you in your person inadequacies.
Its pretty immature to feel that one deems it correct or a liberty to be an idiot anon and not be seen as an intelligent known.

Joe take great care of this site, he spend lots of time wading through rubbish and cleaning out the crap mainly left after ANONS have posted here.

Instead of thinking only about yourself and how you have FEELINGS which YOU dont want bruised. How about thinking about respecting Joes site and those who are willing to assist others openly and honestly with what knowledge they freely impart.

Ban gutless anon posters please.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

You are not getting it. I will put it in simple terms.
Lets pretend I am one of the leading experts in 18th century restraints and came across a Boar War handcuff. It had a left hand threaded key. I wonder (and lost many nights of sleep) if the company ever made a right hand key model.

In my eyes, I think this would be a dumb question and would NEVER post the question, as I am a world famous expert, but find this question just outside my area of expertise.

So, I post my question as an Anon.

No one has been harmed, I got to ask my question and 9 out of 10 times, I will get an honest answer. I don't get people calling me names or think I am stupid.

A win-win for all

ANON

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

You are still a yellow belly idiot and are stupid but no-one else knows it's you!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

in response to the last ANNON poster.... right no harm done, but a hugh showing of their character !!! IF the person is suppose to be knowledgeable and an expert in the field (no one can know EVERYTHING) by NOT giving his/her name (to me) shows & tells that THAT PERSON - thinks - that they are HIGH on themselfs - conceited & thinks that THEY are GOD'S gift to man so to speak..... for a knowledgeable person or expert in any field to ADMIT that they do not know something and therefore ASKS A QUESTION -- UNDER THEIR OWN NAME is a TRUE TEST of their character & they should be COMMENDED by ALL OTHERS .... joe

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

RIGHT ON JOE. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.

Ron

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

If there were no reproductions being made of rare handcuffs the OP would have had no reason to make a post.

It sounds to me as tho the Original Poster had two things in mind,

1. To get some attention by pointing out that some rare cuffs are listed on ebay (The handcuffs were all listed in the Handcuffs and Keys category) Where for sure everyone has seen them.

2. To point out the fact that there are reproductions out there. (which steal away the value of the true rare items).

Just because you CAN reproduce something, does it mean that you SHOULD?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

"Just because you CAN reproduce something, does it mean that you SHOULD?"

In some cases YES. I made my accurate reproduction of the Mirror Cuffs because the original ones are off limits to everyone. They are in a glass cabinet in David Coopperfield's private museum.

I built them so that they can be handled and examined by ANYONE. If I didn't do that, all those collectors at the last Cannon's Convention wouldn't have had a chance to do just that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Don't aid anon's by repling to them (even if they have a email address which they hide themselves behind)

They are happy to take but don't give. We don't see their collection or know what or how many cuffs they have.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Its impossible to judge on the photos if its a real Guiteu or not. Even if the seller is 100% honest it can be a replica. Not many original Guiteau is known and the handcuff has a strange history. I agree with Ian and Joe. Nobody has al the knowledge in restraints. So much diffrent skills is involved in the blacksmiths work it takes a lifetime to master.

Johan Ahlberg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

I think it's safe to say some people like the attention when "they" discover a rare item, so they have to anounce that somewhere to get the attention. Of course that's annoying. Writing as anons, it points to what kind of person they really are. But we're just going to have to live with that, I guess.

Some other people start claiming it's fake, or that you're paying too much, because they want it. I find that cheap.

Most collectors spend a lot of time researching, so yes, it does spoil some of the fun, but that I believe is anon's mission. Best not to respond to them at all. I too recently bought some Hiatt shackles that had lots of rust on them, but turns out, they were from 1980+, despite the rust and the markings. Bummer.

That said, this is of course an amazing cuff that will certainly fetch one of this year's highest prices. It'll probably be far out of my reach.

Good luck, everybody.

Nils

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Mick makes a reasonable defense for his actions while Ian, (in my opinion) just goes on the attack.

Just demonize , demean , and destroy those whom you disagree with.

Politics as usual right?

Many posters here have good reason to be anonymous, (For example the person who recently supplied the photos of the Peerless / S&W model 1 handcuffs with the Trade Mark logo.) They specifically do not want their identity known and I for one respect it.

For some of us who are still in the job market, (where employers now utilize search engines to find out things which may sour a prospective employees chances of gaining employment with them) among other reasons. Using a real name and attaching it to a post here could (raise some eyebrows) as they say.

As for my post above it still stands, (There would be no confusion about whether or not this is a genuine Guiteau if there were no reproduction cuffs out in the market.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Hello All: Well... I am the eBay seller, Tightyankee, of the cuffs in question. I was attempting to do some research on the cuffs and stumbled upon your site and discussion forum, and it seems I'm suddenly famous. All 4 of the sets of cuffs are from a New Hampshire estate. They were hanging from nails in a barn. According to the owners they have been hanging there for decades. I've just added several additional photos to the auction listing. I fully admit that I am completely ignorant regarding handcuffs, and that I'm pleasantly amazed at the bidding. If you have further questions feel free to contact me through eBay. Thanks for your interest.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

The good news is that these cuffs are genuine.

The bad news (besides the fact that this is a long post) is that the winning bidder should not expect that they will be able to open the left cuff (as pictured in the first photo) when their belated Easter present arrives in the mail. It might be able to be opened, but I doubt it because of the following.

These cuffs are like a plug-8 in that there is a male course threaded plug on each of the movable bows, which thread into a female (cylindrical) locking piece having a male bolt on the opposite end (these are made from one piece of steel). The male bolt end has a spring-loaded brass (silver or nickel plated) cylinder that covers the bolt (same as the Rankin cuff, which should not be too surprising since these cuffs were made by A. Rankin Co., Philadelphia). These can be seen in the last photo posted (#10).

The one-piece cylinder/bolt is free-floating inside of the lockcase, and it is turned clockwise to tighten and counterclockwise to loosen. The key has an outer cylinder (with wing-nut for turning) and an inner bolt that threads through the outer cylinder (two-piece or "key within a key") and also has a wing-nut for turning. When the cuff is locked the outer key is threaded over the bolt in the lockcase (same as a Rankin) by turning the wing-nut until it bottoms out, and then the inner key is threaded down onto the end of the bolt creating the frictional force needed to turn the key and locking bolt together counterclockwise until the bow is threaded outward and unlocked.

The important thing to note is that the key cannot be removed from the lock when the cuff is opened because the locking bolt turns freely with the key and the key will not unthread. Hence the cuffs must be locked using the key in the reverse order as described above, and then the key can be removed when the bow is tightened against the frame (locked closed).

So, the reason I believe the left-hand cuff is not likely to be able to opened is because it is in a partially opened (about 1/16 inch) condition, which means that under normal (proper) operating condition the key would not have been able to be withdrawn from the locking bolt. Remember, the key can only be removed when the cuff is closed tight, unless one of the following conditions exist (here is the bad part):

1. The male plug and female locking bolt threads are frozen (rusted) shut, in which case the key can be turned outward while the locking bolt will remain stationary and not rotate (remember, the male "plug" thread is forged with the bow and does not rotate; or

2. The key threads and/or locking bolt threads are stripped, in which case the key is unceremoniously removed from the locking bolt.

In either case, the likelihood of being able to open this cuff, even with an original key, is not very good for the reasons I have stated.

Here are a few observations in support of my hypothesis:

A. Inspection of photos 8 & 9 reveal that the left cuff has been attempted to be pried open, as evidenced by the non-parallel mating surfaces between the movable and fixed bows. Perhaps someone was unable to open the cuffs (beyond 1/16 inch) using the key and then took to prying with a screwdriver or crowbar. Anyone who has tried to remove a rusted nut from a bolt (e.g., exhaust manifold) knows that with liquid wrench a frozen nut can sometimes be turned a little before stripping the hex head or breaking the bolt (!)

B. Inspection of photos 1 & 3 reveal that the movable bow on the left cuff is bent inward, perhaps in an attempt to dislodge the bow outward thereby releasing it from the lock. Of course, this is futile, as the plug threads are very strong and the cuff would likely break before stripping these threads.

C. Inspection of photo 2 reveals impact marks suggesting that someone has pounded on the ends of both of the fixed (rounded) bows, perhaps in an attempt to free the frozen lockwork.

D. Inspection of photos 5 & 7 reveal that the lockcase cover on the left cuff (photo 7) has possibly been removed in an attempt to free the bow from the lockwork. Of course, if the threads between the male plug and female locking bolt are rusted together, then removing the lockcase may be futile since the locking bolt cannot be removed unless it is free from the plug and not much more additional torque can be applied to the bolt when it is captured inside of the lockcase.

On the other hand, it is possible that one or both cuffs may be able to be opened with the correct key, but given the very limited amount of torque available (remember, only the friction of the key and bolt ends pressing together provides the force to turn the locking bolt), I would not count on being able to do so since a previous owner has apparently already tried and the left cuff is now in a partially opened condition.

Since this is an information forum, I have provided information that I know to be correct (the cuffs are genuine, and how the lockwork functions) and information I believe to be likely (at least one, and perhaps both cuffs may not be able to be opened) based on speculation of the physical condition of the cuffs from the photos shown. So those bidders who do not care whether the cuffs will be able to operate (or believe in spite of it that they will be able to open the locks) can ignore this post, and those who do care may choose to weigh the information above when bidding. After all, these cuffs are still worth a lot as wall hangers, which is what they were previously.

P.S. For those that have never owned or handled one of these cuffs before, the "swivel link" does not swivel like a Rankin but in fact is a solid link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

I am not commenting other than what I stated above.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Not having any hesitation to confess my ignorance, I have a question: just what is a Guiteau handcuff? I thought I knew, but after doing a little looking around this evening, I'm not so sure.

Okay. Here's what the historical record reveals. On July 2, 1881, a pathetic, mentally deranged man named Charles Julius Guiteau shot U.S. President James A. Garfield twice in the back with a .442 Webley revolver in a Washington, D.C. railway station as the President was preparing to board a train to join his wife on a vacation in New Jersey. Guiteau immediately surrendered to authorities of the District of Columbia police department. Newspaper accounts of the time state that he was "taken away in handcuffs."

For more on Mr. Guiteau, and what a true nut case he was:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_J._Guiteau

Here's my first question: were those items handcuffs as we now think of them, or simply a set of chain nippers or a police hook?

Eleven weeks later, President Garfield died, most likely not from the gunshot wounds, but infections to those wounds caused by the ignorance at the time among doctors regarding probing his wounds with unwashed fingers and unsterilized medical instruments. Whatever the cause, Garfield was dead and Guiteau was brought to trial for his murder. During that trial, as reported and depicted in woodcuts in Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper, Guiteau was escorted betwixt his jail cell and the courtroom in handcuffs.
http://www.rarenewspapers.com/view/578124
Allowing for artistic license, I rather doubt the woodcut illustration truly depicts the actual handcuffs, but it does demonstrate they were handcuffs as we now know them and not a chain nipper or police hook.

Guiteau was found guilty of murder and hanged on June 30, 1882.


On January 7, 1906, Erik Weisz a/k/a Harry Houdini made an escape from the the jail cell previously used to confine Guiteau. I have been unable to find any reference to Mr. Houdini escaping from "Guiteau handcuffs." I also doubt that he had anything to do with the design of the same, whatever they were, since he would have been a mere seven years old at the time of the offense.

Here's where it gets interesting, at least for me.

The Sidney Radner Houdini Collection was auctioned on October 30, 2004. Photos of the event include one of what are denominated Guiteau handcuffs:
http://www.handcuffs.org/radner/auctionphotos.html
(sorry for making you scroll down a bit but I ain't worth shucks when it comes to posting photos)

Brad Darling wrote an article about Guiteau handcuffs that appeared in the 2007 Handcuff Annual. With my apologies to Brad, I gave away my copy of the same to a friend a while back and my memory is far from perfect so I will let others still in possession of the same fill this in.

Here's the odd part. On July 1, 2008, a pair of handcuffs identified as those used on Charles Guiteau were rediscovered from a derelict museum exhibit.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/200 ... ssin/80113
As you can see, no photos are provided.

I've never been fortunate enough to actually play with Ian McColl's replication of Guiteau handcuffs, let alone those in Mr. Radner's Houdini Collection. However, judging from pictures, drawings and descriptions, those items with their peculiar locking mechanisms are indeed quite fascinating, and Ian's creation seems to duplicate the item Mr. Radner had.

However, I wonder whether what we today call a Guiteau handcuff is indeed the actual type of cuff used on Mr. Guiteau, or simply a creation of Mr. Houdini (well after the fact) with an emphasis on self-promotion and a mere wink at actual history.

Perhaps whoever breaks open their piggy bank to acquire the subject item currently on eBay will be kind enough to offer further information on how the lock mechanism on these actually work. It's clear they are essentially a Rankin design (absent the little hook thing or whatever you call it on the straight locking arm) based upon the Delestatius patent. The one picture of the lock hole is just too crummy for me to tell if it is the double key, super duper type of lock we today associate with a Guiteau handcuff (whatever that really is) or simply an old, very dirty and rusty Delestatius lock (which would explain the little gap between the locking arm and lock case).

Either way, while it is not a Rankin, and I doubt every used on Charles Guiteau, it's one wall hanger I would like to have. Unfortunately, my piggy bank has been on a diet.

Congratulations in advance to whoever winds up with them.

Franklin

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Hi All!

I think I just found the answer to the latter questions I posed. Actually, I had the answer all along, I just forgot where it was. Getting old ain't all that fantastic.
http://lauren.vortex.com/HandcuffSecrets.pdf
You might want to download it. I did. Now I can forget where it is on my computer.

Anyway, go to pages 32-33, and pay particular attention to Illustration 5. Item I in the photo is the little rascal all the furor is about.

In this book, Handcuff Secrets, by Harry Houdini, he states this style of cuff was manufactured by Andrew Rankin and that he was "informed" they were used upon Guiteau; so maybe they were, maybe they weren't. It requires a "key within a key". The odd thing is that in the illustration, one of the cuffs has a little gap in it between the lock case and locking arm while the other doesn't, just like the one on eBay. Now, that is weird.

However, I'm still curious about what turned up in that Washington, D.C. museum. I'm also wondering whether the item in the Radner collection should have been labeled as being "the type of handcuff used on Guiteau" rather than being the actual cuffs.

Thanks for your indulgence.

Franklin

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

I too have spent many hours researching the topic. I doubt highly that these were used on Guiteau and have a decent amount of literature to argue why.... from photos to the timeline discretion to his claim of visiting Rankin (which gets interesting)It will take some time and collaboration with Bushey but we will share our views sometime in the near future.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

I did a little digging of the patents and found a previous discussion that should prove interesting.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/261154/t ... or+Rankin-

I did checking on the patents mentioned and one is valid and the other isn't.
The U.S. Patent 33,917 is a valid one pertaining to handcuffs and U.S. Patent 52,725 for improved manacles is actually related to iron piano frames and nothing to do with handcuffs. I tried searching and can't find the second patent being referred too. Anyone have the answer to that?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Guess my fingers got a little ahead of my brain back then when typing.

The correct patent number is 52745.
http://www.google.com/patents/US52745?p ... es&f=false

Here's a link to 33917
http://www.google.com/patents/US33917?p ... &q&f=false

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Why not just wait and see who wins? Also, as Joshua stated, we have been researching the Rankin Co. of Philadelphia.
We have uncovered quite a bit of information on Andrew Rankin and Alfred Delestatius, and know the Guiteau, to date,
is one handcuff of several in America that was not patented. While most believe it was made by Rankin and Co. we have not confirmed it. Also, as Joshua stated, we believe the story of it being used on Guiteau may not be true due to timelines we have uncovered in what Mr. Rankin and Delestaius were doing and making at various times in their careers.
My knowledge of Houdini and what he himself stated in his book Handcuff Secrets do not add up. No matter what this may be one expensive wallhanger. I'd love to see it operate but agree with a few posters here it is in very rough condition.
Anyway, only a short time until we know who owns this piece of either original (or not), operational (almost certainly not) rusty piece of metal. John

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Maybe one of these days when I have some free time and in the downtown area of DC I can wonder up to the 6th floor and look at them and find out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

John, I smell another rare handcuff book in the making! I would love to see a book about this cuff, the history, the Houdini lore concerning it, the mechanics, etc. =)

So excited to see how much it will go for! My limit was passed up a while back but I am not ever sad about that; just happy to see one come out of nowhere and into the reach of someone in our community.

Mike

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Mike
It might not go to someone in our community.I heard a rummor that David Copperfield may bid.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Copperfield already owns one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

It would be too bad it he got it.....he doesn't share ANYTHING with our community.

Mike

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Well, its like the last Golden Ticket has been found....all the excitement and anticipation is finally over. I will not say who won them but I will say that it was not me or David Copperfield. Congrats to the lucky winner......your collection is one step closer to being complete!

Mike

P.S. That was the longest 6 days ever! =)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

My word, the seller couldn't have hoped for a better outcome!

$8,877.78

I'm going to start investing in old barns.

Cheers!
Jason

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Great idea Jason if you find say a Lorey or Marlin leg iron in one give me a shout . The seller sold the lot of cuffs on consignment after he went out to the barn and the guy was building up a pile to cash in for scrap. He asked the EBay seller if he thought the cuffs had any value at all or if he should just toss in the scrap heap. Thank goodness he had the trust that for nearly ever old contraption there is a band of collectors somewhere. He had no idea he possessed one of the holy grails that could solve a 100 year old mystery. Certainly more info and photos are to come.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Well then, congratulations are in order, Joshua!

We look forward to some detailed photos and a final resolution on the Guiteau/Rankin debate.

Cheers!
Jason

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Franklin added a link to Scott McCabes article
http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/200 ... ssin/80113

and said ..'As you can see, no photos are provided.'

I was disappointed that the article didnt provide a photo, so I emailed the author Scott McCabe. He was helpful and sent me a copy and gave me permission to show it here.

Regards

Ian

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Most of us have a pair of those Towers, and in all honesty I like the idea of a common cuff being used on these famous guys.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Guiteau was executed (by hanging) in 1882, this Union Hardware model Tower Double Lock Handcuff is listed on this site as having been introduced in or around 1910http://handcuffs.org/gallery/gallery_s-t.html Either Joe's info on his gallery is wrong or these are not the cuffs used on Guiteau......unless they dug him up and slapped them on his corpse. Someone's facts are not in order.

Mike

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Thanks Ian for going the extra mile and clearing up that little piece of the mystery.

I love it. The funniest part is that these things were in a police museum. Geez.

I wonder if those guys would be interested in vial of water from a melted piece of ice from the iceberg that sank the Titanic? Comes with a handwritten tag and everything. Found it in an old barn.

Franklin

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Hi Franklin, I have given Scott McCabe the URL's for this thread and a short history booklet I did for my repro cuff.
I hope he might think of doing a follow up article for his paper.
The funniest part is that these things were in a police museum.
I agree.
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Can anyone date that type of paper tag?? (Seriously)
Ian

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

"Can anyone date that type of paper tag?? (Seriously)

Hello Ian:

Assuming that the tag wasn't stored in an airtight enclosure of some sort, I highly doubt if it was made prior to the early 1990's. I have tags of this sort from the early 1980's that are highly tanned from sitting in storage boxes all those years.

Regards,
Jason

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

A while back I posted some information about Lilly and who he might be. If someone in the DC area has the time and access to do some research, the hospital is still there, under a different name, and if Lilly was a doctor there must be some record of his service.

The original posting is:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/261154/m ... was+Lilly-

Ron

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Ian:

Since you're on corresponding terms with Mr. McCabe, kindly convey to him my belief that a follow up article might be rather fun.

When I found that newspaper article, it struck me as curious that those cuffs were discovered just before the anniversary of Garfield's shooting. And discovered by someone who might have been a bit of a disgruntled individual.

Hey, with enough investigative journalism and hefty doses of speculation and enthusiasm, those lousy Union Tower cuffs might acquire some historical significance after all as being part of the Great Guiteau Handcuff Hoax.

But I do hope nobody gets into trouble over them.

Franklin

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Has anyone seen a photo of Guiteau wearing cuffs? Most of the Lincoln conspirators are trussed up, why not him?
There are a whole slew of press photos of various criminals wearing handcuffs turning up on Ebay lately. There was a guy who had a display that toured carnivals and sideshows and I can't remember his name, but he specialized in handcuffs worn by famous bad guys.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Hi Bruce, I have made cuffs and torture equipment for have displays of 'Real' gear from ancient times and cuffs that held infamous people, nothing can be sure and nothing can be trusted. Gee, there is even pieces of the Jesus cross still around and people believe that !
There is no correlation between the Guiteau handcuff and Guiteau the man as far as I know expect for Houdinis description. (which is why we call it the Guiteau handcuff and not the 1st model Rankin handcuff
Definitely no photos have turned up, you can always Photoshop one.
Ian

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hand-Cu ... 2a1bf0f867

Is this A genuine GUITEAU or a repro. I know these are beyond RARE. The same seller has several other handcuffs as well. One is a lily iron.

Happy Bidding!!!

Known at this time, there was one photo that was taken by a local newspaper that can't be found. However there were a handful of sketches made a couple prior to the trial, a few during the trial and at least one while being hauled off to be hung. Of those sketches they show a handcuff being locked/unlocked from the side of the lock and near the center. This would suggest a Tower or a Phelps. The sketches back then were drawn with very good detail down to the wood grains in the surrounding room. Of course it's not as solid as a photo but perhaps the best we have to go off from now. Nothing I've seen shows anything relating to a Guiteua, Rankin, or even near the end of the cuffs such as an Adams. Perhaps in the coming months more will pop up.