T. Froggatt handcuffs

I recently picked up a pair of Darby handcuffs marked T.Froggatt, (pronounced fro-gat. The name and a number were the only marks on them. At first I thought they must be really old, maybe the first of 3 generations all named Thomas Frogatt. The threaded bolt inside was very square, not round. I compared them to my other Froggatt cuffs and the cast swivel and squarish clevis matched exactly to a pair of adjustable T.Froggatt cuffs which Hiatt patented in 1885. So I figure that they must have been made by the Thomas Froggatt who sold his business to Hiatt in the 1930s.
But the question I have not answered is, if Hiatt patented the adjustable handcuff in 1885, when did the restrictions end to allow Froggatt, and later RCS to also make them??? I have tried to research UK patent restriction for that period without success.

Paul

I recently picked up a pair of Darby handcuffs marked T.Froggatt, (pronounced fro-gat. The name and a number were the only marks on them. At first I thought they must be really old, maybe the first of 3 generations all named Thomas Frogatt. The threaded bolt inside was very square, not round. I compared them to my other Froggatt cuffs and the cast swivel and squarish clevis matched exactly to a pair of adjustable T.Froggatt cuffs which Hiatt patented in 1885. So I figure that they must have been made by the Thomas Froggatt who sold his business to Hiatt in the 1930s.
But the question I have not answered is, if Hiatt patented the adjustable handcuff in 1885, when did the restrictions end to allow Froggatt, and later RCS to also make them??? I have tried to research UK patent restriction for that period without success.

Paul

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Paul

What a great cuffs! I have several pairs of T. Froggatt marked cuffs, but I do not have an adjustable pair.

As discussed in the 2007 annual, it is my belief that the T. Froggatt mark belongs to Thomas Elias Froggatt (1836- ca 1880) who we know had a company separate from his father William Froggatt. Since William Froggatt just used the Froggatt name, Thomas Elias used the "T. Froggatt" mark to differentiate his cuffs from is father's. In 1874 William died and Thomas brought the two companies back together.

Eventually the T. Froggatt mark went away, but who knows when? The T. Froggatt cuffs are a bit cruder than most Froggatts. They lack the nice rounded edges at the bottom of the lock tube. They are exact matches for some Dowler cuffs and it has been my theory that whoever made the T. Froggatt cuffs made cuffs for Dowler.

As for the T. Froggatt adjustables, my guess is that they were made at about the same time as the Hiatt patent. They look very much like the early Hiatt adustables that actually have the patent mark. Perhaps they made on a license from Hiatt. Perhaps Froggatt simply ignored the patent and made them anyway.

Joe

I recently picked up a pair of Darby handcuffs marked T.Froggatt, (pronounced fro-gat. The name and a number were the only marks on them. At first I thought they must be really old, maybe the first of 3 generations all named Thomas Frogatt. The threaded bolt inside was very square, not round. I compared them to my other Froggatt cuffs and the cast swivel and squarish clevis matched exactly to a pair of adjustable T.Froggatt cuffs which Hiatt patented in 1885. So I figure that they must have been made by the Thomas Froggatt who sold his business to Hiatt in the 1930s.
But the question I have not answered is, if Hiatt patented the adjustable handcuff in 1885, when did the restrictions end to allow Froggatt, and later RCS to also make them??? I have tried to research UK patent restriction for that period without success.

Paul

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Hi Joe,
I seem to be covering old ground again and I've been trying to get copies of the Handcuff Annuals for a while.

You raise more questions than answers I'm afraid. My understanding of the family relationships is quite different and I'd like to sort it out.

I have 3 Thomas Froggatts still alive in 1885 when the adjustable cuffs were patented, all handcuff makers, all direct descendants of Elias (brother of William)
The fourth, Thomas Elias Froggatt, I did not have a death date of, but you say it is c1880 which is prior to the patent. I only have him listed as Whitesmith, which is probably still a handcuff maker. That makes 4 Thomas Froggatts all descended from Elias. Two are cousins.

The Hiatt adjustables are still being called "patented" in 1906 catalog. I assumed they were still stamped as such then and so are not necessarily from 1885, but could be 20 years later.

Paul

I recently picked up a pair of Darby handcuffs marked T.Froggatt, (pronounced fro-gat. The name and a number were the only marks on them. At first I thought they must be really old, maybe the first of 3 generations all named Thomas Frogatt. The threaded bolt inside was very square, not round. I compared them to my other Froggatt cuffs and the cast swivel and squarish clevis matched exactly to a pair of adjustable T.Froggatt cuffs which Hiatt patented in 1885. So I figure that they must have been made by the Thomas Froggatt who sold his business to Hiatt in the 1930s.
But the question I have not answered is, if Hiatt patented the adjustable handcuff in 1885, when did the restrictions end to allow Froggatt, and later RCS to also make them??? I have tried to research UK patent restriction for that period without success.

Paul

Click to expand...

while searching FROGGATT in the search engine i came across this thread by paul which might be of interest to some :

http://www.network54.com/Forum/261154/m ... +died+1842

LK D~D

I recently picked up a pair of Darby handcuffs marked T.Froggatt, (pronounced fro-gat. The name and a number were the only marks on them. At first I thought they must be really old, maybe the first of 3 generations all named Thomas Frogatt. The threaded bolt inside was very square, not round. I compared them to my other Froggatt cuffs and the cast swivel and squarish clevis matched exactly to a pair of adjustable T.Froggatt cuffs which Hiatt patented in 1885. So I figure that they must have been made by the Thomas Froggatt who sold his business to Hiatt in the 1930s.
But the question I have not answered is, if Hiatt patented the adjustable handcuff in 1885, when did the restrictions end to allow Froggatt, and later RCS to also make them??? I have tried to research UK patent restriction for that period without success.

Paul

Click to expand...

Here are some pics showing the same cast swivel as that of the T.Froggatt cuffs but on Hiatt cuffs. Sure both manufacturers could be getting their swivels from one source but these Hiatt cuffs are supposed to be from 1920 or later because of the British Made stamp. That's at least 40 years difference between the supposed ages of these cuffs with the same swivel.
Do you suppose that old Tom Froggatt put his own name on cuffs he made when he later worked for Hiatt after selling his business to them. That might explain why so few are marked T. Froggatt.

Paul

I recently picked up a pair of Darby handcuffs marked T.Froggatt, (pronounced fro-gat. The name and a number were the only marks on them. At first I thought they must be really old, maybe the first of 3 generations all named Thomas Frogatt. The threaded bolt inside was very square, not round. I compared them to my other Froggatt cuffs and the cast swivel and squarish clevis matched exactly to a pair of adjustable T.Froggatt cuffs which Hiatt patented in 1885. So I figure that they must have been made by the Thomas Froggatt who sold his business to Hiatt in the 1930s.
But the question I have not answered is, if Hiatt patented the adjustable handcuff in 1885, when did the restrictions end to allow Froggatt, and later RCS to also make them??? I have tried to research UK patent restriction for that period without success.

Paul

Click to expand...

Is the clevis integral or riveted. (as seen in large photo of swivel above)

I recently picked up a pair of Darby handcuffs marked T.Froggatt, (pronounced fro-gat. The name and a number were the only marks on them. At first I thought they must be really old, maybe the first of 3 generations all named Thomas Frogatt. The threaded bolt inside was very square, not round. I compared them to my other Froggatt cuffs and the cast swivel and squarish clevis matched exactly to a pair of adjustable T.Froggatt cuffs which Hiatt patented in 1885. So I figure that they must have been made by the Thomas Froggatt who sold his business to Hiatt in the 1930s.
But the question I have not answered is, if Hiatt patented the adjustable handcuff in 1885, when did the restrictions end to allow Froggatt, and later RCS to also make them??? I have tried to research UK patent restriction for that period without success.

Paul

Click to expand...

The Froggatt clevis is added. (Old-school). The Hiatt clevis is integral.
Paul

I recently picked up a pair of Darby handcuffs marked T.Froggatt, (pronounced fro-gat. The name and a number were the only marks on them. At first I thought they must be really old, maybe the first of 3 generations all named Thomas Frogatt. The threaded bolt inside was very square, not round. I compared them to my other Froggatt cuffs and the cast swivel and squarish clevis matched exactly to a pair of adjustable T.Froggatt cuffs which Hiatt patented in 1885. So I figure that they must have been made by the Thomas Froggatt who sold his business to Hiatt in the 1930s.
But the question I have not answered is, if Hiatt patented the adjustable handcuff in 1885, when did the restrictions end to allow Froggatt, and later RCS to also make them??? I have tried to research UK patent restriction for that period without success.

Paul

Click to expand...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Hello. Does anyone on this forum have any suggestions as to where I could locate a pair of Froggat handcuffs for sale? Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

froggatt leg irons on ebay right now.

Thank you New Town. I did see the leg irons on eBay, however I was more interested in a pair of Froggatt handcuffs. Appreciate the response nonetheless! Still looking.

New Town, Could you please, share the Ebay link for that set of Leg Irons? Thank you.
-Richard Knip-

Richard

I don’t know how to post the link but if you go to eBay and type in “Frogatt leg irons “ as a search, the listing will come up.

Spencer

Thank you, Spencer! For that price, they can hold on to them for a while. LOL!
-Richard Knip-

Hi Matt, I'll assume you are not the Matt who posts as Matt3114 who researches the American cuff patents etc.
What particular style of Froggatt cuff are you after - plain Darby. They also made, adjustable, figure 8, plug single cuffs and different leg irons. I doubt many would part with a T.Froggatt but the plain Froggatt Darby do come up on eBay now and then. Depending on what quality/look you are after, I might be able to help you. ie some of the stampings are so small you'll need a magnifying glass. The early ones are usually plain steel and a little rusty. later ones can be polished or plated with larger stampings. 
What is your fascination with Froggatt, or is it just one that you don't have in your collection.

Hello PaulJDavies. Correct, I am not the same Matt3114. I am interested in the plain Froggatt Darby cuffs. Nothing fancy. Am a big fan of Houdini, and have been since I was a kid. I want to include that style of cuffs in a box frame with other memorabilia. Any assistance you can provide in locating a pair for me would be most appreciated! Thank you for responding!

If you don't mind dealing with overseas -and they might take some time coming from Australia- I can send you some photos if you leave an address. Otherwise you can keep checking eBay until one comes up, or someone in USA might have a spare. Cheers Paul

Paul, that would most appreciated. Can I send you my email address? I just created a Tapatalk account with the username MattGuz. I tried sending you a private message so I could contact you directly but system said it’s disabled. I don’t mind at all dealing with overseas (Australia) at all. If you’d like, you can send me a private message directly and I’ll reply. Whatever is easier for you. Thanks!!

I just listed a pair on E-Bay.  They are quite worn, but with the remaining markings I am confident that they are Froggatt.   These are in good working condition, but they are quite worn, pitted, etc.   

Here is a link to Steve's auction page to help you out. You can see the remnants of the Froggatt stamp on the cuffs.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antiqu ... Sw4yRgV1es
-Richard Knip-

Thank you Richard. I appreciate the link!

You're welcome, Matt!
-Richard Knip-

Hello everyone. Am looking to purchase a pair of Hiatt Darby Handcuffs. Doesn’t have to be perfect, in great condition or pristine. Must have key and function, however. Any assistance is greatly appreciated! Thanks.

Hey Matt. The same guy, Steve, you bought the Froggatt cuff from, has just posted this Hiatt for sale. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antiqu ... SwFyFgXhlA
-Richard Knip-

Hello all. Posting again, looking to acquire a pair of Hiatt Darby cuffs, with original key. Prefer non-plated. Must be working. Doesn’t need to be in the greatest condition. You guys helped me previously, and it was greatly appreciated! Any assistance would be welcome. Have a great day!

Any particular age of Hiatt Darby you are looking for, Matt?
-Richard Knip-

Early 20th century, thereabouts. Not very particular though. Thanks for asking.

Richard, I did say early 20th century, but I’d be happy to see any pair of Hiatt Darby, non-plated cuffs, with original key and in working order.

Matt, I went through everything I have that is sellable, but I do not currently have any Darby cuffs to sell, right now. The only older aged cuff is a Tower Bean's Pattern Cuff, with a working key. Everything else are newer/modern cuffs. I will keep my eyes open and let you know if I find something, like what you are hunting for.
-Richard Knip-

Thank you Richard for taking the time to go through your cuffs! That was very nice of you. Thanks also for keeping an eye out if you come across a pair of any Hiatt Darby’s (working order, with original key, preferably non-plated). I’ll take all the help I can get!!
~Matt