Griffin Belt?

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

I have seen a handfull of these type of locking devices over the years, however nobody seems to know with 100% certainty what their purpose was.

As for the raised lettering, when they were cast from a mould, it would be easy to add (in reverse) names or wording into the mould. As the item is cast, the molten metal simply flows into the lettering of the mould therby occupying it's space.

It's really cool though the locking screw,

Best,
--Vince

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

Vince, I disagree that this item was cast. It would have been wrought steel.

Mark can you give us dimension of this item?

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

I would suggest that what appears now to be raised letter was probably flush to the surface as in the process of damascening and the background has eroded away.

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

There is an image of a catalog page somewhere. It think it was on this forum. It showed this type of thing call a horse collar from memory. Does anyone else remember it?
Paul Davies

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

Thanks for getting back to me guys.

The belt has a circumference of approximately 87cm about 34 inches when shut. it's approximately 1.6cm wide and is approximately 0.6 cm thick. It has a flat outer face and a rounded inner just like a lot of the old plug 8's

I don't think it's cast in fact I'm certain it isn't.

It was difficult to photograph the markings clearly. The word Birmingham and the date are raised about 1mm above the level of the rest of the belt.

Paul. I'd wondered about use on a horse or pony but ruled it out as I think you could just slip it over it's head, a little like a braffin. I don't know much about horses but I know a lady that does. She's a neighbour so I'm going to pop round and see if she will try it out.....she has them in all sizes.

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

I don't know what it is either, but I like it. Very nice item.
Joe

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

I visited my neighbour who seemed to be a bit bemused but she was happy to try it on one of hers horses. As I thought, that if it fits the neck then it just lifts straight of the head.

Mark (RMP)

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

unusual for a 17th century lock of this type to have the spike. a bit too high security for a horse wouldn't you think.

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/261154/m ... 1275217558

From the link above you will see that Griffin was making steel horse collars around that time.
Who knows whether some type of leather harness was also involved to keep it in place. As to the security, the lock is more secure than the locking dog collars of the time. As your main form of transport and/or tool of trade, the horse was very valuable. Also during that era, large dogs were used to pull carts through the narrow alleyways for delivery men and hawkers, and so the dogs were valuable; guard dogs included.

I know I saw an old catalog with handcuffs that also showed a steel horse collar in the last 6 months. If it was not here, it was probably on eBay. The shape was similar, but it was a very small drawing.

Having said all that, I do not know what the lock is. But I love it, especially with the inscriptions on it. At that date (1785) most of the known handcuff makers were still not born.

Mark, you have found many very, very rare English items, and I don't know how you manage to find them, but keep going!

Paul Davies

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

Thanks for having a little dig around.

Unless it's used in conjunction with another bit of tack I'm still not sure how it would work. I've googled lockable horse collars but yielded nothing useful.

My neighbour has a house full of old horse and riding related collectables and she can't suggest anything either.

Perhaps it could be used to stop a horse from being removed from it's harness. Pinch the horse and leave the cart?

Maybe there is a horsecollars.org site with all the answers.

I can no longer see any of the pictures. Not sure if it's my machine or have they gone.

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

Mark, does the lock have the secondary thread for a plug?

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

Mark, the link appears to be working now. I think it was a problem with photo bucket.

Anon asked about the thread for the plug. I can just make out a RH thread in the first photo, if you can confirm.

I do not see a photo of the Griffin stamp, but do not doubt it at all, and I was wondering why they were dated and marked Birmingham. So much handwork - a promotional piece maybe?

These would have been easily bent to conform to any shape, but not being adjustable in size would limit their use.
Paul

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

I cannot find anything of note for the date to be on this item.
http://www.onthisday.com/events/date/1785#

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can throw any light on to this recent purchase.



I had initially thought this was a plug locking neck collar probably manufactured by Hiatt.

However upon arrival it was obvious that it wasn't what I was expecting. The circumference is approximately 34 inches which makes me think that if it's intended use was on a person then it would be a waist belt. I haven't entirely ruled out that it could be for an animal but a horse's neck is thicker that it's head is wide so it would just slip off and I think it would be to small for cattle, so I think it may well be a waist restraint.



The belt takes a standard size plug cuff key however it needs to have a hollow core like a Boer War plug cuff. I can't recall if I've seen this hybrid kind of key before. The Boer War size keys that I have are much to big to even enter the key hole. Which would mean that the wall thickness for the key would be quite thin.



The Belt is marked Gr ff n however the mark is quite small and difficult to read. I'm certain this will be Griffin. On the other side In large Copper Plate font it reads Birmingham with a date of 1785. What to me is very unusual is rather than being engraved i.e cut into the metal, it is in bas-relief. i.e raised above the height of the rest of the metal around each letter. I'm not sure how this would be done because if it meant removing all the metal around the words to leave them standing proud then this would be very labour intensive. Does anyone know about this kind of process?




The main body of the belt is similar in dimensions to a plug legiron only much larger. The whole thing is elliptical in shape that would suit a waist rather than round like a legiron although it is possible that is been bent out of shape.

Has anyone seen something similar to this before?

Thanks,

Mark (RMP)

Click to expand...

Hi I can confirm that a plug from a pair of 8's fits as does the key when the belt is open. I can see what I'll describe as the captive nut rotate as the key engages it. Obviously the post on the bolt stops the belt from being lockable as the key is not hollow.

The Griffin stamp in very small and I had problems getting the other name and date in focus and readable and failed to get a usable image but certain letters are just readable and I'm happy to say it's Griffin.

Thanks for all your input guys.

Mark (RMP)