The Forum at Handcuffs.Org

Opinions on different pawl bar counts.

30 visible archived posts · 30 preserved total · topic ID 6113

mtht 29 May 2016

I have had a cheap viper pair of cuffs with 1 pawl bar which I threw in the garbage but I also have an Alcyon (NIJ) pair with 2 pawl bars and a TCH (NIJ) with 3 pawl bars. What are your opinions/thoughts/facts on cuffs with different numbers of pawl bars? Pro's Con's ?

Anonymous 29 May 2016

in what regard???

mtht 29 May 2016

That is kind of my point. From what ever regard you have opinions and knowledge on. Your take on the differences between the number of pawls that cuffs have and what it means, aside from the obvious "on paper" number of them being different.. lol

Anonymous 29 May 2016

it's not an LOL matter, when ones asks a question, the person should ahve an idea of what they are looking for and the answer. If you just want an opinion "today is nice'

what is you opinion and we can take it fro there but always who are you and what is your past experience with handcuffs or is this a " I'm just passing thru and thought i'd ask??' type scenario.

mtht 29 May 2016

I should think it is very clear. No different than "What's your opinion on air, more vs less? Pro's Con's?" Pro: Alive, alert Con: oxidation, death (due to lack of it). I am asking for opinions on the benefits, drawbacks etc of the number of pawl bars in handcuffs. If you have something to share please do.

Anonymous 29 May 2016

What you name, experience with cuffs and your opinion??

Anonymous 29 May 2016

The single pawl can easy be shimmed by any thin object like needle. Single pawl lock in general may be easily opened by paperclip or hairpin throu keyhole. Double pawl is hard to open by needle, but easy by hairpin. Tripple pawl may be opened only by shim or by specialy crafted paperclip. All this is true if handcuffs are not double locked.

Anonymous 29 May 2016

wow, another newby tells all.

mtht 30 May 2016

What do you mean? It's a simple request to get a discussion going about the pros and cons of the various different numbers of pawls in cuffs.

Anonymous 30 May 2016

#10

why start something which has been dealt with before just for the sake of getting something started. that's just discussing for discussing sake. no point.

mtht 30 May 2016

#11

Well since you have been here long enough to know, where is the previous discussion on pawl counts? I could not find it.

Anonymous 30 May 2016

#12

I have lots of cats, so for me, the more Pawls, the better!

H"owy 30 May 2016

#13

Well in my S&W 94s 2nd and 3rd generation there are three pawls.

However there is only one spring, thus if the favorite pawl is depressed the other ones seem to follow, and they shim open rather easily.

I have not studied them enough to see if it is the same pawl in all of the cuffs or if it s different in them.

BTW the 94 pawls have a notch on the end of them to catch a shim, however this s fairy easy to get past.

Howy
Cincy

mtht 30 May 2016

#14

I think yuil cuffs also can prevent shimming.

Tremex 30 May 2016

#15

After I have verified on one Yuil pair, I can confirm they have an anti-shimming system : a small plate is inserted between the two pawls, preventing to press them together with a paperclip for example, and the bow must be grooved in order to deal with this plate. Need a two-teeth key, as "blue-locked" ASP (it also exists a thre-teeth key, I think).

The other Korean cuffs, the Kyoung-Chang, have three pawls but no anti-shimming feature (and need a special key).

Tremex 30 May 2016

#16

I add pictures (Sony A700, 50 mm macro with embedded flash, not the best lightning).

for the plate

for the groove (not perfectly centered...)

Always annoying one can't edit messages after posting.

Unresolved image reference ↗

mtht 30 May 2016

#17

Wow thanks. The pictures really help. See, to my eye that makes multiple pawls have more usefulness to them. Sure maybe... maybe multiple pawls help a bit against picking but doesnt do anything about shimming. I think most people can pick even 3 pawl HIATT or TCH that I have seen so I dont know how much security just adding pawls really does. But those yuil look really good.

Anonymous 30 May 2016

#18

There are some different realisation in multipawl locks. First - simple 2 or 3 pawl (Alcyon, Taiwan, China, TCH, Hiatt/Safariland, ASP green, and much more). The key is universal handcuffs key. But be aware! In general keys are not safely interchangable! US key may be deadlocked in Kyung Chang handcuffs. S&W key may not works with TCH.
The second - key part of pawl have a separating plate, but strand teeth is non separated by slit. In this case the key must have a slit for separation plate and this lock is hard to open by paperclip or hairpin, but it may be shimmed (Ralrem, Bonowi Trilock, ASP hi-sec blue)
The third - the key part of pawl have not the separating plate, but strands teeth have a slit. In this case the key is universal, but shimming is difficult (CTS Thompson Tri-Max series).
The fourth - the separation plate are present in both parts of lock (Yuil)

BTW. There is an old Spain model with four unseparated pawls

mtht 31 May 2016

#19

What do you mean by deadlocked?

Anonymous 31 May 2016

#20

deadlocked = double locked.
deadlock is a locksmithing term meaning something doesn't move (dead) or is made incapable of moving.
unlike latch which is spring loaded to fasten. deadlatch however means a latch which once latched becasue dead. (so a credit card cannot push it back.
likewise with handcuffs. the pawl is spring loaded and 'latches" into the ratchet teeth on the bow. The pawl is double locked (handcuff terminology) or deadlocked (locksmithing term) so it cannot be raised by a shim etc.

Anonymous 31 May 2016

#21

Deadlocked means deadlocked. US universal key in Korean KCH handcuffs may be in position when handcuffs are double locked but key can't be turn in any direction nor removed. In this case the sole way to remove cuff is to cut it by boltcutter.
The same situation may occur with old Harvard handcuffs

mtht 31 May 2016

#22

My god. I think I will avoid such a brand.

Howy 31 May 2016

#23

The same situation may occur with old Harvard handcuffs/eg-irons

This normally occurred when a key other than a stand Harvard key was used to activate the double lock feature.

For instance if a standard key was used, it had a shorter bit, just long enough to pass the double lock mechanism, but not fully activate t.

The double lock arm would spring backward and trap the standard key in the keyhole.

The easy solution was to use a paper clip into the keyhole to fully set the double lock mechanism, thus releasing the standard handcuff key.

Then the standard handcuff could rotate to the opening direction removing the double lock, and continuing further lowering the pawls and unlocking the Harvard cuffs/leg-irons.

Howy
Cincy

P.S. There must have been millions of the Harvard leg-irons available surplus after WWII. I got my first pair, shipped from NYC for ~$3.00, in the 1950's

mtht 31 May 2016

#24

Wow ok that's old. I doubt I will run into that. I prefer more current technology. Although since I am incapable of making a 0.3mm cut in the key flag of Smith & Wesson keys as part of creating TOOOL's "Ultimate Handcuff Key", I do not want to get any "high security" cuffs that have split-flag keys until some day I can either make or find those keys. I would love a pair of Yuil model Y-01 K, but only having 2 keys, with no backups is not acceptable to me. This is TOOOL's key spec:

I cannot find anyone that sells a spec key like this, nor do I have the tools to make such a precisely positioned and thin cut All I can do is get the key flag the right size in general, lacking the slit.

Unresolved image reference ↗

djhalfdead 31 May 2016

#25

At the lock show in Indy this year, I took on a couple of pairs of Harvard handcuffs that had keys stuck in them. I was able to get them free, with the help of Ron Spitz, by using a knife blade or a small screw driver to push the pawl bars down as far as you can, while twisting the stuck key. It takes so time and a lil effort, but a stuck key can be freed up using that technique. I recently used that same idea on a pair of Lion Tamer Thumb Cuffs and a pair of Clejuso cuffs as well. All of them were abale to be released and the keys were recovered without damage to cuff or key. Of course, this isnt going to work very well while you are wearing the cuffs, unless you can shim them.
-RK-

mtht 31 May 2016

#26

Thanks -DJhalfdead-. Very good to know. So, am I right in assuming that the reason a key gets deadlocked in multi-pawl cuffs is the key flag/blade/bit is not wide enough? The TOOOL official spec for the ultimate handcuff key has a flag width of 2.9mm. While it technically opens both my Alcyon and TCH cuffs, my particular TCH have higher tolerance than usual and there is a bit of shifting of the pawls due to a little gap. So when I use a key that's got a 2.9mm wide flag, it will not open the cuffs if the cuffs are being pulled on, as if they are on too tight or you are simulating it by putting internal pressure by having the cuffs around fingers, pressing outward. But I customized another key and it is 3.14mm wide and it opens perfectly. So I think the next S&W keys I buy, I will not quite file them down to the official TOOOL spec. They should still remain quite universal I hope.

Anonymous 31 May 2016

#27

Unfortunately fully universal key is not possible. S&W and Alcyon key may not work on some Peerless. TCH key may not work on some Taiwan handcuffs. The compatibility matrix keys-handcuffs is complex and not always reproducible.

mtht 31 May 2016

#28

I am making mine according to the TOOOL group's research. They did all the analysis and computation to come out with a key that fits a whole massive amount of cuffs on the market, that use the standard formfactor. I just wish I could make the center cut to finish it off so it will work on higher security cuffs like Yuil and ASP.

Tremex 31 May 2016

#29

It is also possible to free a universal key blocked in a KCH cuffs. Having experienced this problem, I have succeeded to release the key by pulling the double lock lever with a pin ! After that the key is free to rotate. It's easy because on this cuff, the springs (and levers) are very smooth. It's similar to Harvard lock problem.

Otherwise, my spanish Star cuffs have a two-pawls system, and and a splitted key. And the "star", a small wheel preventing any shimming. As chinese cuffs and the H & R original model.

mtht 31 May 2016

#30

I've been thinking about this stuck key issue. Would it work if you put the key in, begin turning slightly and then pull the key up, so that no pawls will close above the key flag that would block it in? My TCH has issues with smaller keys but thankfully not enough to deadlock the key in the key way. So would this idea of pulling the key upwards as turning solve/help prevent deadlocking of keys? Or am I missing an aspect of this problem.