Lilly Measurements

We have done a lot of research on the Lilly shackles but we would like to get a good data base on the Lilly's that you might have in your collection.  This type of data may give us a clue about its manufacture.  This was done with the known ER's and with the small data base we could assume that the handcuff were serialized by the numbers stamped on the cuffs.  The data base for the ER leg irons was too small to make any conclusions.  I know that others have tried to collect this data but not much came of it.

The data, as shown in the picture, is the length (L) from the center of the hinge pins.  The width of the bar (W).  The inner measurements of the cuff (A) and (B).  And finally the markings stamped on the inside of the cuff (Roman numerals, numbers, letters, etc.).  One more piece of information is requested, is the top short piece of the cuff is tapered or flat.  The picture in this post is a tapered example.  Pictures of the flat example have been posted later in this thread.   

Please don't post your data on the Forum but send it to me at ronspitz@msn.com

I will compile the data and post the results on the Forum without any names of ownership.

It has been my belief that there were several manufactured of the shackles and one clue may be the difference in the stampings.

Thanks for you help,
Ron

Hello,
I thought I had  Lilly leg irons but not so sure now. The lock has a square head. Can you please tell me.
Mike

Here is a preview on what the Table will look like.

New Town your leg irons are Lilly's.  I requesting just the hand shackles.
Ron

Ron,
A very good initiative! I think I've sent you the measures of my Lily previously, otherwise please let me know and I will do it tomorrow.

Lars

ronspitz wrote:We have done a lot of research on the Lilly shackles but we would like to get a good data base on the Lilly's that you might have in your collection.  This type of data may give us a clue about its manufacture.  This was done with the known ER's and with the small data base we could assume that the handcuff were serialized by the numbers stamped on the cuffs.  The data base for the ER leg irons was too small to make any conclusions.  I know that others have tried to collect this data but not much came of it.

The data, as shown in the picture, is the length (L) from the center of the hinge rivets.  The width of the bar (W).  The inner measurements of the cuff (A) and (B).  And finally the markings stamped on the inside of the cuff (Roman numerals, numbers, letters, etc.)

Please don't post your data on the Forum but send it to me at ronspitz@msn.com

I will compile the data and post the results on the Forum without any names of ownership.

It has been my belief that there were several manufactured of the shackles and one clue may be the difference in the stampings.

Thanks for you help,
Ron

Click to expand...

If I never sent you mine let me know and I’ll get it to you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do not have any previous measurements on file.  Please send or resend them to me.  Hopefully everyone will participate and something meaningful will come out.

Ron

Thanks to those who have contacted me with their information.  Hopefully a lot more will participate.  In an earlier post I inserted a table.  I forgot to converted it to a PDF format from the MAC Operating System.  That has been corrected and can be downloaded to view.

If anyone is interested in the only known research into the Lilly history, it's available for viewing or downloading at this link:  
http://handcuffs.org/LillyResearch.pdf

Ron

Ron

Under SORT what do L N and R mean?

Matt

Matt

They are just letters that makes it easier to sort.  L=letter markings, N=number markings and R=Roman numerals.

Ron

I think these 2 cuffs are too similar not to be connected somehow. The plug seems borrowed from other cuff designs and was probably not practical near sea water with the plug seizing up due to rust. Lily irons are associated with the Navy. Comments?

Ron, thanks for keeping track of this.
I always wondered how close in size all of these are.
The two in the bottom picture have some major size differences from each other.
Both are Number 4 but one is the more common "lV" and the bottom example uses the alternative "llll".

The other two cuffs in the top picture are about the same length from hinge pin to hinge pin but the bar is shorter in one as the circumference of the wrist holes are different and the plated cuff has a more circular shape than the heavily patinaed one.  (middle pic)

The patina one is lettered with a "P" and the plated one is "Vllll" or number 9.

It is safe to say that the lettering and numbering has nothing to do with their size!

Ron per our phone call, here are some other differences that I have noticed.
Three of mine have the square ended top bar and one has the 3 sided tapered tip.
The thickness of the lock tube has a thin and a more robust tube.
The manufacturing process of these will naturally produce many variations as they were hand made and most likely by many different workers and possibly different factories.

Talking with Paul Davies it seem like a good idea to add a column to the table for information if the top short piece is tapered (T) or flat (F).  Mark has posted examples of the two types and the picture I posted for the measurements is tapered.  Those of you who already sent the information, I think I may have pictures of your Lilly on file from several years ago.  There are many other differences like the size and shape of the lock tube, but I have to limit the size of the table.  Thanks again.

Ron

Looking at your diagram Ron, I'm wondering whether some might be confused between Tapered ( diminish or reduce in thickness towards one end ) and Bevelled ( one not at 90 degrees ) as your Tapered arrow points to the bevelled edge and English is not everyone's first language. Cheers Paul

Oh, and just to clarify how mine looks. It is a square end, not half octagon, which is not bevelled. The top bar has a very slight taper and the middle bar has a pronounced taper. Paul

Blast from the Past.

Cannon's Convention 2007
I am showing off my new Lilly that I bought just a few hours before.
This is the "P" marked one, mentioned above.

I must have been 50 pounds heavier in those days.
Great times we all had!

The attached table is all the data I received.  Some of the data was taken from previous work by Matt Forte, including incomplete data measurements.  To me the best sort was on the Sort (markings) column.  It could be interpreted that there were at least four manufactures on the cuff with each using their own or specified style of markings.  The data could also imply that the markings were serialised.  

The markings could be read in several cases where a 6 could be a 9, Xl could be lX.  Other Roman numeral marking do not follow the conventions we know today, Vllll and an example.  In the late 1850's, who knows what factory workers used, they just wanted to mark the parts. 

There should be disagreements on this data, but this is my interpolation of what I see so far.

I thought the table would show in this thread however, if you click on the attachment it should download to your browser and then you can open it.

Ron

Ron,
Thank you for doing this chart.
If the owners would care to share, I would love to see #20 as it has the unusually wide bar. Almost 2 inches.
I would also like to see (Roman) #1.  Who ever has that, is the King Of Lillys!
I wonder if that really is the very first one ever made.  Just AWESOME!!!
Now we need to figure out if the Roman Numerals examples came first or was it regular numbers or letters?
Why are some not even stamped?

Really impressive blog and collection of Lillys out there.  I enjoyed it.

I just received measurements on another Lilly without any markings.  The table posted above has been updated.  

Ron

The table has been updated again with a change to the width measurement for the irons marked 20.

Ron

Since I feel that one of markings could be by the government, namely the Navy Yard in Washington, DC, I remembered this article I found from the Evening Star newspaper, on July 25, 1857.  It is part of an extensive tour that the paper was given and this is the section on the Blacksmith's shop.  The search was for shackles but hand and leg irons was included in the article.  It was a lucky find.  Of course we don't know if these were Lilly's. 

Ron,
In the attached article above, the word "Buoy" precedes the word "shackle" with no comma separating or differentiating the words.
Therefore, I believe the reference was for 'Buoy Shackles".  The Navy would certainly have a need for these items.


I do not think their wording pertains to the kind of shackles that we are interested in unless any of us are around boats too.
"Hand and Leg Irons" seem to be most related to our topic.

Mark, if you would read what I posted that the search was for shackles, but above the shackles, the statement they also mentioned that they made hand and leg irons.  

Ron

Ron, yes, I agree with you.   The "hand and leg irons" are most definitely mentioned in the article but my point was that the "shackle" also mentioned is the kind that is attached to buoys but not people. 

Mark, I now what type of shackles they were talking about.  The article even says buoy shackle.  Shackles are also used onboard ships, sail and steam (at that period).  I've  spent 35 years sailing, on my sailboat, San Francisco Bay, there were shackles everywhere. 

When I do a general search on the Lilly's, many terms are used, shackle, handcuff, restraints, etc.  You never know what will come up.  As I stated that article search used shackles and that newspaper article came up.

Ron

So I was under the assumption that Lilys were all numbered differently....serial numbers if you wish.

Over the weekend, I discovered another Lily with the same number as mine (Vllll or 9).  There are now 3 Number 9's out there.
Sheds a new light as to what these numbers actually mean as it does not seem to be unique to each pair.

Hi all. Does anyone have the dimensions of the key and approximate weight?
Thanks, Frank

CWacquisitions wrote: ↑

Mar 04, 2024

Hi all. Does anyone have the dimensions  of the key and approximate weight?
Thanks,  Frank

I have been buying a 10mm square sockets key that are less than $15 from a seller on eBay.
He is in Germany, so click on "worldwide" setting to find him, if you need a key.

I can send a link to you if you have trouble.  Not sure of the weight of the cuff as they do come in different sizes/lengths.

Thanks so much. Frank

I was just able to add a Lilly bar to my collection. It came from Switzerland (!) and bears the number XXVI (26) on the inside and the letters "CG" on the outside. Will try to add a photo shortly.