Matthew Forte's Collection

As most of you probably know, this last Monday, our friend Matthew Forte's collection went up for sale through an auction house in Rhode Island. The auctioneers were Bruneau Antiques. I was an online bidder for this sale and did quite well...or so I thought. When the auction finished, i had purchased 13 lots. I got my invoice and paid my bill through Paypal. The shipping was included, so I thought everything was fine. This morning, I got a refund for $250, with no phone call and no explanation from the auctioneer. So, I contacted to auctioneer to see if I was overcharged or what had happened to make me eligible for this refund.

I talked with a lady at the auctioneer's office who informed me, that I did not win two of the lots that I was high bidder on, when the lots were marked as "sold!" She tells me there was a "clerking error" which blocked a competing bid which came in after mine. So, since that person bid higher than me, they win. My issue with this is that I was told that I won the items and was charged, and paid for said items. The auction house took away two lots that I had won! How is that fair that a "competing bid" came in after mine, I was never informed of it, so I couldnt make a higher bid to regain the item? The Competing bidder wins by default! Because an employee at this auction house hit the "sold" button, instead of the "competing bid" button, i got screwed! I asked the lady if the two lots could be moved to a future auction, since the auction did not end being fair to all bidders. She said it was "not possible." She said that the competing bidder, had no higher competing bids, so they win. This whole deal was crap! Now, I am out two lots I purchased and no way to regain them. Has anyone here ever had anything even remotely close to this happen in any auctions? I have never had this come up, in my 35 years of attending live auctions or online auctions. What a joke!
-Richard Knip-

Richard,
Sorry to hear this.
I bought some goodies too.

What were the lot numbers that you got screwed out of?
Wonder if I ended up with them.

I have been able to upgrade many rare items in my collection and will be offering my existing items here and other sites (ala Mike Griffin style)
I will be offering some really nice things, so keep your eyes open.

I missed out on a few items as the site was not easy to navigate around and place bids real fast but am grateful for what I did win.

We should PM as I would like to know what you won.

Congrats on your wins as well, Mark! I was refunded for lots 249 and 282. I got them both at great prices, but the auction house has stripped them away from  me, now. Someone else got two very nice pieces for a great price...$10 over my bid. Had I known that I was "outbid", I would have continued to bid higher. I wasnt even given the chance and had thought I had won the items until this morning. Its a shady way to do th auction business if you ask me. How do I know that the person who was in gallery, buying most things, wasnt a "friend" of the auction house and a good customer, that I outbid? He very well could have told the auctioneer what he was bidding on and they "awarded" it to him. I have no way of knowing for sure. If their employee makes a mistake, the auction house should have to eat that loss! Not a reputable seller, in my eyes.
-RK-

Richard

Somehow I was unaware of the auction and I’m sorry I missed out but what happened to you is rather tragic and I don’t know why people selling handcuff collections can be so difficult to deal with. There seems to be something about this hobby that attracts a fair share.

Spencer

Richard,

Sorry to hear that you were a victim of some auction house "clarical error," or so they call it!  It's interesting you mention an auction mixup with this particular auction house because I had something weird happen with one of my lots too.  I received my invoice Tuesday morning and reviewed it to ensure all items were there, and the price being charged including premiums, etc was all in order.  I completed payment, and double checked my invoice again to admire my newly aquired gems.  Anyway, when I clicked on one of the items, it routed to the url of the auction page and displayed a picture of a different item # I never bid on, but had the correct lot number I won.  So I did the same thing you did, and called them and spoke to a female and explained the issue, and wanted to know what her pic looks like, and why this was happening.   She could not come up with an explanation for this other than "it must be a system anomaly or my browser."  Seriously????  I highly doubt she has the technical expertise to confirm, or even understand root cause for "system anomalies!"  

Sorry for the long narrative, but wanted to share my experience, and I have to tell you I'm a little nervous what might show up at the door now since they're being plagued with "system anomolies" and "clerical errors."  

Kris

Sucks and sorry to hear :(
Looking at the prices there were some good bargains to be had there!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I got six items and the billing was correct.  However, during the auction the bidding information was going crazy.  I don't think it was the auction house that had a problem but the Liveauctioneers software that seemed to blow up and go crazy.  In order to see what was going on, I had to concentrate on the red bidding bar at the bottom of the page.

Ron

This auction was an interesting one.
It started off with a superb collection of "Band Boxes" sold from another entity.
Bandboxes are really cool but of no or little interest to me.
I had to look this up as have I never heard of it before.
In Houdini's day and in Civil War era, shirt collars were sold and worn separately from the shirt.
One needed a Band Box to store them in to keep bugs and dirt from soiling them.  Made from cardboard with wallpaper covers, these decorative and fragile boxes must be hard to collect.
It was an interesting start to the police batons, dark lanterns, badges and other law enforcement equipment that Matthew Forte collected and put in his books.

If you don't recall who he is, he authored at least 2 books that I know of;
American Police Collectibles - Dark Lanterns and Other Curious Devices & American Police Equipment - A guide to Early Restraints, Clubs and Lanterns.
All or most of the items at auction are featured in either of these books.
The auction house describes him as;
Matthew G. Forte was a retired Training Director of the Port Authority of NY and NJ Police. He was a staff writer for the Police Collector News, wrote about police equipment for law enforcement journals and publications, and authored two books on early police equipment. This wonderful personal collection includes early restraints, clubs, lanterns, and other devices.
He helped Ron Spitz and Paul Davies in researching the Lilly cuffs.  Unfortunately, he died a year or so ago.
I am honored to have won a few of the items from his collection.


Most of the common cuffs were priced reasonably.  Some items sold for less than the appraised price and some went for considerably more. There were a few bargains even with the 20% house fee added.
Of course, what I wanted went for $$$ as I had to have the rare stuff.
Much of what I ended up with is in better condition than the examples I already have, so I will be selling/trading off my existing items, which are nice to begin with.
Many of the items were listed as "non-functional".  I called the auction house and asked why a large percentage of their offerings were broken, defective or non-working, especially when many appeared to be in pristine condition.  Their reply was that the cuffs which had keys, did not open/lock properly.  I assumed that several just had bad keys, but some could have had actual problems.  The Rankins, Palmers and a few others were too much of a gamble for me, so I stayed away from bidding on them.  They sold for very little money as others may not be willing to take the gamble too.


This nipper may have been the highest priced item of all in the restraint collection, but I was happy to win them. 



The page describes this as:

"DESCRIPTION
United States,1915
Model 1915 Murphy nickel plated steel mechanical nipper. This may be the only known example, patent rights were sold to James Milton Gill and Peerless had manufacturing drawings for it."

A bit pricy but unique. 
The Murphy nipper design has 2 patents, and the item is slightly different from the drawing.







This different model is quite unique as well as the one above and as of this week, I have never seen either one.
I am not sure if this earlier one was ever made for production or appears in prototype form.


My experience in bidding had some glitches.
I tried to bid on a few other items, but they didn't take and someone else won them.  
It was fast, furious, exhausting and a great deal of concentration was required to follow all the activity.
No problems with billing were experienced.  Other than missing out on a few items, it went well for me.

A few shiny additions to the collection.

Wow, I was wondering if it was one of us in the fraternity that fetched the “Murphy” gem.  I couldn’t believe it went higher than the McKenzie Mitts, and you may have the only one…truly a nice find!  On a side-note, I am grateful to be a new owner to some of Matt Forte’s collection as most people will never get that opportunity.

jettaboykrs wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2024

Wow, I was wondering if it was one of us in the fraternity that fetched the “Murphy” gem.  I couldn’t believe it went higher than the McKenzie Mitts, and you may have the only one…truly a nice find!  On a side-note, I am grateful to be a new owner to some of Matt Forte’s collection as most people will never get that opportunity.

Oh, please share what gems you got.
There was some great stuff for everybody.
I hope I did not escalate the price on you.

I bid on many things and stopped on a few when it got up there in price.
I did get some Marlins at a great price.

I do wonder if having the provenance of Matthew's collection will make the items, we all got worth any extra $.
Most of what I bought were things to add to my collection and/or for trading, so I was only into this for the love of the hobby.  One day will come when it all has to go, so I will print out each auction page and keep it in a binder when it is time to sell.  Maybe it will add some extra interest and value.
Some of the guys here had the pleasure of knowing Matthew and I believe him, and I wrote back and forth a bit here.  
Don't know much about him, but it is nice to be the new curator of some of his collection.

I do wonder how he got some of these amazing items, though.  His books undoubtedly contributed to some offers and acquisitions.

djhalfdead wrote: ↑

Mar 20, 2024

Congrats on your wins as well, Mark! I was refunded for lots 249 and 282. I got them both at great prices, but the auction house has stripped them away from  me, now. Someone else got two very nice pieces for a great price...$10 over my bid. Had I known that I was "outbid", I would have continued to bid higher. I wasnt even given the chance and had thought I had won the items until this morning. Its a shady way to do th auction business if you ask me. How do I know that the person who was in gallery, buying most things, wasnt a "friend" of the auction house and a good customer, that I outbid? He very well could have told the auctioneer what he was bidding on and they "awarded" it to him. I have no way of knowing for sure. If their employee makes a mistake, the auction house should have to eat that loss! Not a reputable seller, in my eyes.
-RK-

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Richard lot 282 I actually won and I only place 1 bid on it a week or so before the auction. May I ask what your high bid was on that twister chain? Ron J

Unfortunately, I was sick that day. The Palmers #2 would have interested me. Prices were good. Enjoy your finds, everybody! 

rejones68 wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2024

djhalfdead wrote: ↑

Mar 20, 2024

Congrats on your wins as well, Mark! I was refunded for lots 249 and 282. I got them both at great prices, but the auction house has stripped them away from  me, now. Someone else got two very nice pieces for a great price...$10 over my bid. Had I known that I was "outbid", I would have continued to bid higher. I wasnt even given the chance and had thought I had won the items until this morning. Its a shady way to do th auction business if you ask me. How do I know that the person who was in gallery, buying most things, wasnt a "friend" of the auction house and a good customer, that I outbid? He very well could have told the auctioneer what he was bidding on and they "awarded" it to him. I have no way of knowing for sure. If their employee makes a mistake, the auction house should have to eat that loss! Not a reputable seller, in my eyes.
-RK-

Richard lot 282 I actually won and I only place 1 bid on it a week or so before the auction. May I ask what your high bid was on that twister chain? Ron J

Click to expand...

The "winning bid" for me was placed at $80. Wasnt your bid just the opening bid for the item or did you bid higher than me and they never put your correct bid on the screen? They say you threw in your bid at the last milliseconds of when they said final call? If you placed the bid a week ahead of time, how is that possible?
-Richard Knip-

djhalfdead wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2024

rejones68 wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2024

djhalfdead wrote: ↑

Mar 20, 2024

Congrats on your wins as well, Mark! I was refunded for lots 249 and 282. I got them both at great prices, but the auction house has stripped them away from  me, now. Someone else got two very nice pieces for a great price...$10 over my bid. Had I known that I was "outbid", I would have continued to bid higher. I wasnt even given the chance and had thought I had won the items until this morning. Its a shady way to do th auction business if you ask me. How do I know that the person who was in gallery, buying most things, wasnt a "friend" of the auction house and a good customer, that I outbid? He very well could have told the auctioneer what he was bidding on and they "awarded" it to him. I have no way of knowing for sure. If their employee makes a mistake, the auction house should have to eat that loss! Not a reputable seller, in my eyes.
-RK-

Richard lot 282 I actually won and I only place 1 bid on it a week or so before the auction. May I ask what your high bid was on that twister chain? Ron J

The "winning bid" for me was placed at $80. Wasnt your bid just the opening bid for the item or did you bid higher than me and they never put your correct bid on the screen? They say you threw in your bid at the last milliseconds of when they said final call? If you placed the bid a week ahead of time, how is that possible?
-Richard Knip-

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Richard I placed one bid last week and I believe it was actually more then $90. I never had time to check the bid on that lot because of being busy at work. I tried to get the same twister that sold on eBay for I believe $243 but I stopped because I couldn’t go any higher. This was the first auction I have ever bid on outside of eBay. I actually won six lots on the auction. I’m sorry if you feel ripped off by the auction but I definitely can’t be at fault.  Ron J

You are not at fault at all.  When I placed my $80 bid, the computer should have registered it and said I was outbid and placed you at $90. That would have given my the chance to bid again. This time, their computers did not. The computers let the auction close at $80, saying I had won them. Now, the auctioneer is saying that you placed a $90 bid with a very short time to go. If that were the case, the final bid you made would have reset the bid clock and given me ample time to respond. Their computer system completely failed on my two lots i lost. The way things went down and what I was told, do not match. But, no, the fault is all on the auctioneers and their computer system and software, in this case.
-Richard Knip-

djhalfdead wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2024

You are not at fault at all.  When I placed my $80 bid, the computer should have registered it and said I was outbid and placed you at $90. That would have given my the chance to bid again. This time, their computers did not. The computers let the auction close at $80, saying I had won them. Now, the auctioneer is saying that you placed a $90 bid with a very short time to go. If that were the case, the final bid you made would have reset the bid clock and given me ample time to respond. Their computer system completely failed on my two lots i lost. The way things went down and what I was told, do not match. But, no, the fault is all on the auctioneers and their computer system and software, in this case.
-Richard Knip-

Richard, honesty I was in disbelief that they sold for so little.
      Ron J

rejones68 wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2024

djhalfdead wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2024

You are not at fault at all.  When I placed my $80 bid, the computer should have registered it and said I was outbid and placed you at $90. That would have given my the chance to bid again. This time, their computers did not. The computers let the auction close at $80, saying I had won them. Now, the auctioneer is saying that you placed a $90 bid with a very short time to go. If that were the case, the final bid you made would have reset the bid clock and given me ample time to respond. Their computer system completely failed on my two lots i lost. The way things went down and what I was told, do not match. But, no, the fault is all on the auctioneers and their computer system and software, in this case.
-Richard Knip-

Richard, honesty I was in disbelief that they sold for so little.
      Ron J

Click to expand...

The software, obviously, was not allowing anyone else to bid, after my bid was placed and beaten. Had others been able to bid, they would have sold for more. Had we been informed of your bid and allowed to counter bid, i would have beaten your bid. I was prepared to go the distance on this chain twister, since I had scheduled a bid for the one that sold on Ebay and was outbid before my sniper placed my bid. I knew the value of the Harvey Twister and was ready to bid accordingly, but was never told that you had bid and beaten me. Their system completely failed on this sale. That not only shorts the auction house on their commissions but it also shorted the person who was selling Matt's collection, which in turn , shorted me on my win for the item.  All around, this was a fouled deal.
-RK-

rejones68 wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2024

This was the first auction I have ever bid on outside of eBay. I actually won six lots on the auction. I’m sorry if you feel ripped off by the auction but I definitely can’t be at fault.  Ron J

Ron, 
If you care to, please let us know what 6 items you did get.

I won 17 but only 15 for me and 2 for a friend.

This banner popped up and I was surprised to see that all 3 of these items were won by me.

Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs wrote: ↑

Mar 22, 2024

rejones68 wrote: ↑

Mar 21, 2024

This was the first auction I have ever bid on outside of eBay. I actually won six lots on the auction. I’m sorry if you feel ripped off by the auction but I definitely can’t be at fault.  Ron J

Ron, 
If you care to, please let us know what 6 items you did get.

I won 17 but only 15 for me and 2 for a friend.

This banner popped up and I was surprised to see that all 3 of these items were won by me.
auction banner 2.jpg

Click to expand...

Mark probably nothing special to most but I’m happy to be adding these to my collection. Here ya go. Ron J

Some nice goodies there.  Thanks for sharing.
Some decent prices on most of these and as a whole, the collection was also reasonable.
My Pratt could use an upgrade, but glad you won that one.
I have to admit that I don't know much about the Harvey Twister. 
Is this design copied by other manufacturers, or is it unique to Harvey?
I will check, but I think I have one, or at least, have one that looks similar.

Mark, first thank you. I now have each model of the Pratts combo. My first model Pratt I purchased from Lars. It was part of the Tom Gross collection. As far as the Harvey twister come along I know of no others that look like it. The finger grip makes it very unique I believe.
Ron J

rejones68 wrote: ↑

Mar 22, 2024

Mark probably nothing special to most but I’m happy to be adding these to my collection. Here ya go. Ron J

Ron,

You and I are now in the G.W. Harvey Club---- only I never knew I was a card-carrying member for years.
I probably seen the name in patent books before, but never associated the name to the nipper.
Mine has no markings at all, so I do like the Pat Pending mark on yours.
Wondering how rare these are.  I have no idea when or where I got this.

Mark I will gladly accept membership to the Harvey club. Can’t wait to get mine which should be delivered today. I’m pretty sure these are rare. Ron J

Has anyone received their package from the auction besides me? I received my box containing several smaller boxes inside. I must say I’m very pleased how each item was packaged and then packaged into the larger box containing all the boxes. The auction house did a wonderful job and I greatly appreciate it. Ron J

rejones68 wrote: ↑

Mar 25, 2024

Has anyone received their package from the auction besides me? I received my box containing several smaller boxes inside. I must say I’m very pleased how each item was packaged and then packaged into the larger box containing all the boxes. The auction house did a wonderful job and I greatly appreciate it. Ron J

You may be the first to get theirs.
I assume they gave you tracking.  USPS, UPS or other?
Did each cuff come in these white boxes? 

Yes I was given the tracking number through email. Being in Maryland I’m very close to Rhode Island so I’m sure that was part of the fast shipping. Each cuff came in those boxes and I really liked how the lot number was on the box . Everything matched up!  Ron J

Going over my wins/losses and discovered that I was a highest bidder but still lost the item.
There were problems with this auction.

Usually in auctions, as the price rises above a certain point, the incremental increase in bids also increases. So the next bid may have needed to be $160. 

PaulJDavies wrote: ↑

Apr 04, 2024

Usually in auctions, as the price rises above a certain point, the incremental increase in bids also increases. So the next bid may have needed to be $160. 

The issues that arose with this particular auction is that they were sending winning bid notices out, to guys who didnt actually win the auction. They were accepting bids, but not updating the item's info page. So, you may have looked like you won an item, but you were actually outbid and were never notified of that. So, you had zero options as far as trying to outbid the next guy. They sent out multiple "winner" invoices for the same item. The auctioneer tried to tell me that this was a very rare incident and it only happened to me during this auction. Seems that a few others also had issues arise in the same auction sale. Bottom line, they screwed up the sale and lied to their customers about it.
-Richard Knip-