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They should’ve done more research

22 visible archived posts · 22 preserved total · topic ID 7766
Original topic ↗Recovered images
Ariochmagician 24 Mar 2024
#1

I saw this in an antique magazine, but this was the only picture I could get. I feel sorry for whoever bought these.


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silentbd 24 Mar 2024
#2
Oh if I had a nickel for every time I see modern Indian handcuffs sold as British Victorian antiques on eBay. I often message sellers about it but it's up to them whether they look into it or not. Sad. I also feel sorry for whoever falls for it. Which can also be the seller. If they acquired them from an unscrupulous person, then later sell them believing they are an antique.
KruegerKuffs 24 Mar 2024
#3
Brass tag alert.
Often enough, the seller will use some non-descript wording, like "age or origin unknown", "sold as is", "no further information". 
You're right, some basic research goes a long way.
Ian McColl 25 Mar 2024
#4
I have seen a video of a collection of the items I made. The person who produced it didn't reseach it and just made up stuff or repeated what they had been told.  Accuracy and truth are not in many peoples morals, just a good story will do. 
djhalfdead 25 Mar 2024
#5
Ian McColl wrote: ↑
Mar 25, 2024
I have seen a video of a collection of the items I made. The person who produced it didn't reseach it and just made up stuff or repeated what they had been told.  Accuracy and truth are not in many peoples morals, just a good story will do. 
As a maker of such accurate replicas, I feel that you should let that collector know that the items that they have are not authentic. If not, the false identity of said items will pass along to the next buyer of those pieces. Forever labeling them as incorrect. Its very possible, that they bought them from someone who was told an inaccurate story as well. This would be your chance to set the record straight and get the recognition for the items that you made.
-Richard Knip-
Ariochmagician 26 Mar 2024
#6
djhalfdead wrote:
Ian McColl wrote: ↑
Mar 25, 2024
I have seen a video of a collection of the items I made. The person who produced it didn't reseach it and just made up stuff or repeated what they had been told.  Accuracy and truth are not in many peoples morals, just a good story will do. 
As a maker of such accurate replicas, I feel that you should let that collector know that the items that they have are not authentic. If not, the false identity of said items will pass along to the next buyer of those pieces. Forever labeling them as incorrect. Its very possible, that they bought them from someone who was told an inaccurate story as well. This would be your chance to set the record straight and get the recognition for the items that you made.
-Richard Knip-
Click to expand...
I don’t know anything about the Auction other than a friend of mine sent me that picture. I didn’t happen to get that issue of the magazine.


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djhalfdead 26 Mar 2024
#7
Ariochmagician wrote: ↑
Mar 26, 2024
djhalfdead wrote:
Ian McColl wrote: ↑
Mar 25, 2024
I have seen a video of a collection of the items I made. The person who produced it didn't reseach it and just made up stuff or repeated what they had been told.  Accuracy and truth are not in many peoples morals, just a good story will do. 
As a maker of such accurate replicas, I feel that you should let that collector know that the items that they have are not authentic. If not, the false identity of said items will pass along to the next buyer of those pieces. Forever labeling them as incorrect. Its very possible, that they bought them from someone who was told an inaccurate story as well. This would be your chance to set the record straight and get the recognition for the items that you made.
-Richard Knip-
I don’t know anything about the Auction other than a friend of mine sent me that picture. I didn’t happen to get that issue of the magazine.


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Click to expand...
My apologies, Arioch. My comment was following what Ian had said, above. Sorry for the mix-up.
-Richard Knip-
Ariochmagician 26 Mar 2024
#8
djhalfdead wrote:
Ariochmagician wrote: ↑
Mar 26, 2024
djhalfdead wrote: As a maker of such accurate replicas, I feel that you should let that collector know that the items that they have are not authentic. If not, the false identity of said items will pass along to the next buyer of those pieces. Forever labeling them as incorrect. Its very possible, that they bought them from someone who was told an inaccurate story as well. This would be your chance to set the record straight and get the recognition for the items that you made.
-Richard Knip-
I don’t know anything about the Auction other than a friend of mine sent me that picture. I didn’t happen to get that issue of the magazine.


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My apologies, Arioch. My comment was following what Ian had said, above. Sorry for the mix-up.
-Richard Knip-
Click to expand...
It’s a shame that more people in the trades don’t consult handcuffs.org. The resources are available and easy to find. Like I said, the picture I posted is all the info I have. I didn’t look online though, I figured it would be pointless.


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Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs 26 Mar 2024
#9
http://handcuffs.org/lyons/

I wrote this article during the time when eBay asked patrons who were knowledgeable in their particular hobby to author a guide that could be used by others entering the hobby to learn more.  This was a great idea and with information being shared between buyer and sellers, eBay could grow and expand.  Buyers had a resource in which they could learn and ask questions with others in the hobby.  Many people sent picture or item numbers to me, and I helped them make better choices.  Some pertained to legitimate collector items, but most were trash.  It was rewarding to help people out and save them from a bad sale.  When quality items get sold, interested buyers will allow the hobby to grow.
Whether a sale item was listed on eBay or outside of it, customers would not be prone to being ripped off as much if they were educated.  eBay was the resource that allowed comparisons between legitimate items versus fake garbage.  As buyer protection increased, money flow/profit for eBay should also increase.  When buyers spend money on quality items, sellers would also do better in their sales by knowing more about the items they were selling.

Several years ago, they eliminated this program, which made no sense to me.  Everyone was a winner, except for the scammers or uneducated.  
Maybe money and greed got in the way and eBay could see the bottom-line potential by generating more sales by attracting more sellers and their cheap trash.

Back in 2018, while discussing this issue with our Handcuffs.org founder, Joe L., he agreed to have my article appear here when eBay planned to eliminate these helpful buyer guides.
I could and should update the article, but it is easy to find, and I am sure it continues to help these unfortunate buyers from wasting good money on fake restraints.
I wish the people who bought the trash in the above magazine article came here first!


Https://www.liveauctioneers.com/catalog ... ce-feb-11/

I found the auction page.  See item numbers 409 and 410 for these restraints.  The other items in the catalog may have the same fakeness to them.



Charleston Handcuffs.

c. 1831.
Hand forged metal with key and tag.
Excellent condition.
11.5" long. Provenance: The Richard Harris African American Experience Collection.
Est. $300-500.
james.slips 26 Mar 2024
#10
Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs wrote:http://handcuffs.org/lyons/

I wrote this article during the time when eBay asked patrons who were knowledgeable in their particular hobby to author a guide that could be used by others entering the hobby to learn more.  This was a great idea and with information being shared between buyer and sellers, eBay could grow and expand.  Buyers had a resource in which they could learn and ask questions with others in the hobby.  Many people sent picture or item numbers to me, and I helped them make better choices.  Some pertained to legitimate collector items, but most were trash.  It was rewarding to help people out and save them from a bad sale.  When quality items get sold, interested buyers will allow the hobby to grow.
Whether a sale item was listed on eBay or outside of it, customers would not be prone to being ripped off as much if they were educated.  eBay was the resource that allowed comparisons between legitimate items versus fake garbage.  As buyer protection increased, money flow/profit for eBay should also increase.  When buyers spend money on quality items, sellers would also do better in their sales by knowing more about the items they were selling.

Several years ago, they eliminated this program, which made no sense to me.  Everyone was a winner, except for the scammers or uneducated.  
Maybe money and greed got in the way and eBay could see the bottom-line potential by generating more sales by attracting more sellers and their cheap trash.

Back in 2018, while discussing this issue with our Handcuffs.org founder, Joe L., he agreed to have my article appear here when eBay planned to eliminate these helpful buyer guides.
I could and should update the article, but it is easy to find, and I am sure it continues to help these unfortunate buyers from wasting good money on fake restraints.
I wish the people who bought the trash in the above magazine article came here first!


Https://www.liveauctioneers.com/catalog ... ce-feb-11/

I found the auction page.  See item numbers 409 and 410 for these restraints.  The other items in the catalog may have the same fakeness to them.



Charleston Handcuffs.

c. 1831.
Hand forged metal with key and tag.
Excellent condition.
11.5" long. Provenance: The Richard Harris African American Experience Collection.
Est. $300-500.
Click to expand...
It’s a great article that has stood the test of time.
Thanks for writing it. Saw you on the pawn stars rerun the other night, always gives me a smile when it comes on !


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Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs 26 Mar 2024
#11
james.slips wrote: ↑
Mar 26, 2024
Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs wrote:It's a great article that has stood the test of time.
Thanks for writing it. Saw you on the pawn stars rerun the other night, always gives me a smile when it comes on !
Thank you!

A funny story... A friend of mine was very anxious to see it, so I invited him over and I would open up the DVD I had of it (Season 2) and we would watch it.

My TV/DVR player is a bit complicated as I have an amp and other equipment that almost needs an electrical engineer to run it.
While trying to figure it all out, I turn on the TV and a million to one shot occurs.  The McKenzie Mitt episode is on broadcast TV and is about to start. 
The hell with the DVD and getting it to play, we just watched the History Channel version.
james.slips 26 Mar 2024
#12
Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs wrote:
james.slips wrote: ↑
Mar 26, 2024
Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs wrote:It's a great article that has stood the test of time.
Thanks for writing it. Saw you on the pawn stars rerun the other night, always gives me a smile when it comes on !
Thank you!

A funny story... A friend of mine was very anxious to see it, so I invited him over and I would open up the DVD I had of it (Season 2) and we would watch it.

My TV/DVR player is a bit complicated as I have an amp and other equipment that almost needs an electrical engineer to run it.
While trying to figure it all out, I turn on the TV and a million to one shot occurs.  The McKenzie Mitt episode is on broadcast TV and is about to start. 
The hell with the DVD and getting it to play, we just watched the History Channel version.
Click to expand...
lol… when it’s meant to be, it’s meant to be :))Love it!


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PaulJDavies 26 Mar 2024
#13
The handcuffs no. The Bilboes, I'd be happy to own. But I can't see it close up.
Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs 26 Mar 2024
#14
The Bilboes don't look righteous to me, but I could be wrong.
I am not well versed in this area.

These do appear to be a notch or two nicer than the debris I see every day on eBay.
At the price these sold for, I would not be interested in this as it is too much of a gamble for me.

These seem to be legitimate style Bilboes from the ship, Henrietta Marie

https://web.archive.org/web/20151218090 ... ilboes.pdf



https://www.floridaslavetradecenter.org ... jects/2999
PaulJDavies 27 Mar 2024
#15
It looks absolutely correct to me except for some newer orange rust. It could be a very good hand wrought copy, but copies these days are usually welded, drilled etc. The ones from booklet you show is only one style, all from the same source and same era. Some used a wedge to close them, some used a spring washer. Certainly the colour image is of a cheaper easier manufacture and the inconsistent width of the bar shows that it was hand made. A repro would not bother with doing that.
Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs 27 Mar 2024
#16
This item is from an older auction is very similar and it too was sold as being real.
They sure are out there, but I don't know who or how anyone could authenticate this.
A metallurgist or an advanced collector of these would have to be consulted if welds or evidence of newer technology are not present. 

The collection shown in the Arioch article was recently offered by Richard Harris, and he seems to be more of an educated art dealer than a historical item collector, so I doubt that he knew that the cuffs were fakes.
These cuffs were the2nd highest priced item in the entire auction.  He probably paid too much for them as well.
In my many years spent helping people find treasures versus fakes, I think this was the most amount of money I've ever seen wasted on rubbish!


http://ancientpoint.com/inf/41682-old_l ... _faso.html
PaulJDavies 28 Mar 2024
#17
There's nothing modern about the construction of these bilboes.
Unknown / guest 28 Mar 2024
#18
These are the obvious modern repro. Note the even width of the bar and shackles, crudely split at one end and hammered flat at the other end. Hole drilled for a repro padlock and (possibly) punched holes in the shackles. All very neat and sharp.
Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs 28 Mar 2024
#19
https://tubitv.com/tv-shows/528068/s02- ... s-shackles
Taking a left turn on this topic, I found this TV show about restraints related to slavery and this iconic item about John Brown's ER Leg Irons which is now featured in our friend, Gordon Gluff's collection.
His collection is an amazing one and while it has been a few years since I visited him and seen much of his collection, I think about this frequently.
John Brown was viewed as a hero and villain, depending upon where one lived.   The Civil War has its beginning with John Brown at Harper's Ferry, Va.
The ER Leg Irons are in excellent condition and the story of these is unparalleled. 

Used on the man who broke the shackles of slavery...

John Brown: Maker-Stamped Leg Irons. Pair of leg irons or shackles believed to be those used on John Brown during his incarceration at the Charlestown, Virginia jail following his arrest during the raid at Harper's Ferry. John Brown's capture of the Federal Arsenal at Harper's Ferry on October 17, 1859 as part of a failed attempt to incite a slave uprising is seen by most historians as the spark that ignited the Civil War. Brown and his followers had fought pro-slavery factions during "Bloody Kansas", slaughtering a group of settlers at Osawatomie Creek, in retaliation for the sacking of Lawrence, Kansas. This was seen as part of the larger picture of violence between Free Staters and Border-Ruffians. The actions at Harper's Ferry, in contrast, raised the fear of servile insurrection and was viewed by slave-holders as the logical outcome to abolitionist agitation. It was this fear, beyond all others, that prompted southern states to withdraw from the Union following Lincoln's election in 1860. This pair of leg irons has descended in the same family since their acquisition by the consignor's great-great-great grandfather, Hezekiah Atwood, Jr. (1824-1885). In researching them, we have tried to sort through the murky waters of family lore and faulty, contradictory information posted online. The leg irons are stamped "D2 ER" in two places while the key (left-handed thread) is stamped "D2". The initials "ER" stand for Elijah Rickard, a well-known locksmith who operated out of Shepherdstown, Virginia. Shortly after Brown's arrest at Harper's Ferry, Governor Wise, fearful of a rescue attempt or interference by the Federal authorities, transferred Brown and his fellow-prisoners to the county seat at Charlestown. Brown and six accomplices, all of whom were subsequently hanged, were housed in the Charlestown jail and forced to wear leg irons. Brown's shackles were only removed when his wife came for one last visit and once again when he was escorted from the jail to the place of execution. Brown received all the publicity, and his co-defendants were given sparse press coverage. The shackles used on Brown were therefore seen as precious relics or souvenirs of the great man and no doubt several people sought to acquire them following Brown's execution on December 2,1859 (pieces of the noose and pikes from "John Brown's Fort" have appeared in the market from time-to-time). Atwood, who served in Company I First Maine Volunteers during the Civil War and subsequently became a Baptist minister, was one of those souvenir seekers. According to a newspaper article published in the "Cincinnati Herald" of November 19, 1893 (a transcript of which accompanies the lot), Atwood arranged with an elderly black lady to obtain Brown's leg irons by substituting an identical pair, procured at an expense of $8. Whether apocryphal or not, the shackles were "liberated" and employed thereafter (circa 1860-1865) as props by Rev. Henry Ward Beecher of the Plymouth Church in Brooklyn Heights where, excoriating the evil of slavery, he repeatedly stomped upon them. The shackles may have been loaned to Beecher by Hezekiah Atwood, Sr., a Congregationalist minister. The consignor's aunt took the shackles to school for a show-and-tell around 1930 at which time a letter of provenance from Charles Baker Atwood (Hezekiah Atwood, Jr.'s son) was lost, as well as a piece of red flannel attached to them. The significance of the red flannel has been lost to time. Perhaps they designated the shackles used on Brown or perhaps they indicated that these shackles had left-handed thread locks. Besides the transcript of the 1893 article, the lot is accompanied by a copy of a 1973 letter of provenance from the consignor's grandmother (the aunt's mother), as well as copies of newspaper articles from 1889 and 1890. The shackles are extremely sturdy and quite heavy, weighing perhaps 5-6 pounds. The original key is included.
Unknown / guest 05 Apr 2024
#20
Paul, and anyone who may know about these things,


I forgot that I had these.
I just can't tell if these are real of not.
Not sure where I bought them, but it was many years ago.
It would be wonderful if they were for real, but for all I know, it could be made recently..
PaulJDavies 05 Apr 2024
#21
We could trade something!?
Paul
Mark Lyons O--O Cuffs 06 Apr 2024
#22
Maybe!

What are you thinking?
I must say, both of us have had good experiences with our trades/excanges....well, I know I have.
Minus an international money transfer glitch, I think all was good for you too.
Email may be best to discuss and share pics.  I am sure I have your address.
It would be an honor working with you again and to see what we come up with.
After the Forte collection, arrives early this week, I will be in Vintage Cuff Heaven and whatever you have will be icing on the cake!